Novall's Letter to the SWGTales.com readers/posters.

[Ekade]

My wish list:

- An admin group that fosters a partnership with the community for the purposes of enhancing our RP experiences in game and on the site.

- A community that is free to discuss topics openly and honsestly. Difficult topics should be allowed to be resolved. Experience has proven that ignoring problems only makes them flare up much worse some time later.

- Representation. I would like the admin group to accept some accountability to the community. I feel the site and the community are bound to one another. The community should have some input as to how the site is governed.

- I want to have fun. I want to see the community and the admin group enjoying themselves. Excessive drama for teh lose. I want to see the focus of this site shift back to RP, and away from the site itself.

[Jabe Adaks]

- An admin group that fosters a partnership with the community for the purposes of enhancing our RP experiences in game and on the site.

- A community that is free to discuss topics openly and honsestly. Difficult topics should be allowed to be resolved. Experience has proven that ignoring problems only makes them flare up much worse some time later.

- Representation. I would like the admin group to accept some accountability to the community. I feel the site and the community are bound to one another. The community should have some input as to how the site is governed.

Unfortunately I can't make any of that happen. I tried today and hit a brick wall. So I am not going to pretend I have any authority here anymore because I don't. So this is my short little resignation.

I can't fix the perceived problems here and they are the only ones I care to work on right now. There is no other job left for me to do.

All I ask is that while I no longer assert myself as a leader here, that the users do not hold me accountable for the things that happen after today.

Jabe

[Jaminos]

I only ask for one thing...


Please turn sigs back on!

[Novall]

My wish list:

- An admin group that fosters a partnership with the community for the purposes of enhancing our RP experiences in game and on the site.

I thought that was already happening? Club Midnight, S&V, MERCS sponcered events. All three of these events have been created/sponcered by mods/admins from these boards. All of these events are here to bring the community together.

- A community that is free to discuss topics openly and honsestly. Difficult topics should be allowed to be resolved. Experience has proven that ignoring problems only makes them flare up much worse some time later.

Experience also has proven that people prefer to take their ball and go home. Me being one of these in the past. I don't wish to do that, or embrace it further. We are coming up with a way to handle flames and I've also been thinking up a way to handle Rp problems that coinicdes with something I used to do in other games.

- Representation. I would like the admin group to accept some accountability to the community. I feel the site and the community are bound to one another. The community should have some input as to how the site is governed.

Constructive critisizm is always good as well as thought out ideas. Admins are accountable for this website, but the people who post on these forums are accountable for their own posts as well as the people who do events are accountable for their events. You are accountable for your guild as well as I am accountable for mine as well as the health of these forums. Everyone has always been free to send up ideas for the site if they've had them. Hell, I've done it myself. As far as things that go on ingame. If its not something thats directly supposrted by SWGTales then I dont see how any admin here could be accountable for that. I need some enlightening on this "wish" because it almost sounds like you want SWGTales to say they are the root of people's problems.

- I want to have fun. I want to see the community and the admin group enjoying themselves. Excessive drama for teh lose. I want to see the focus of this site shift back to RP, and away from the site itself.

This is what we all want. The fun stops when people start second-guessing the SWGTales rules and forget their own acccountability. If everyone would think about those 2 things before they posted: 1) Rules and 2) Accountability, then we will be having fun again I think.

[Dwilah]

Frankly, Ekade, I feel like our Team tries really hard to accomplish everything that you've listed. It makes me sad, very frustrated, and a little angry that you're requesting the things that we put so much effort into behind the scenes.

Over and over again, it feels the team takes heat for the same few people being on the team, or acting certain ways. I could say, can you do better? People would say, yes. We could do better. Maybe you could, I don't know. If you could, I'd be glad for it. But it's very disheartening to see so much blame placed on the team where I feel it's misplaced. I can't and the rest of the team can't change people's minds. You will feel how you feel.

We asked for honest opinions in the poll that Jabe placed. Completely fair and Mostly Fair were the top winners. To me, that seems like a mostly satisfied community. Were those lies? Did people vote dishonestly? Or was that not a vote of satisfaction? I think whoever's in charge, people will be dissatisfied. When I've posted unhappiness or frustration, I've often gotten PMs of comfort or reassurances that what we do is appreciated. If I haven't responded to those PMs, I'm sorry. I appreciate those PMs because they keep me going. It's really hard to keep trying here, sometimes, with all the flack you take for the team as a whole and just trying to fill the shoes of the title, "Community Leader."

Again and again we say that we're open. And we are--but we aren't open to people basing us and tearing us down. That hurts us and makes us angry and defensive like it would anyone else.

We feel VERY accountable to the community. We care VERY much about these people and these events and what we do here. I speak for everyone because I know we do. We wouldn't get so bummed out and upset and depressed about all this shit if we didn't care about all of it, all the work we put into it.

I don't really know how to end or sum up what I'm saying, or if I'm making any sense at all, so I'll just end it.

[Shensen]

I agree on the Rules/Accountability aspect 100%

People CAN have disagreements, people CAN have a healthy debate as long as they stick to their points and can make their arguements without belittling the other person (turning it into a flame post) then imho it's all good.

Jabe hit another point earlier today when he said part of the problem is that they (staff) break their own rules. Now yes I can totally see the "This is our site we provide for nothing" arguement, however that does not remove accountability. It's just unrealistic to expect people to abide by rules you (general - not pointing anyone out) break. People tend to follow the example of the "law".

Perhaps if we were all born under dictatorship in RL it would be easier to accept the "do as I say not as I do" mentality, but that isn't the case. I'm not trying to start a flame or point fingers at anyone specifically. Just saying we need to perhaps be more realistic in our expectations and more tolerant of human nature.

I think that is the major "issue" of late. I don't think anyone here can argue the content, cosmetic appearance, or overall service the site provides - all of which imo are top notch.

[Ekade]

Frankly, Ekade, I feel like our Team tries really hard to accomplish everything that you've listed. It makes me sad, very frustrated, and a little angry that you're requesting the things that we put so much effort into behind the scenes.

What would have me do? Not state my desires?

A suggestion is not an accusation or a slam. Don't take it as such.

I believe in the concept of continuous improvement. Basically you admit that you are not perfect, and you constantly look for ways to do things better.

I feel the Team should be excited when they get feedback, not hurt. Don't be so defensive when some people suggest other ways of doing things. Be open to new ideas. Hear them out, talk to them.

The relationship I desire is one where I can post a wish list, someone like you can see it and say, "I thought we do that. However, Ekade is a member of my community. Let me talk to her and find out what she feels is missing. I would like to understand her needs and see if there is an opportunity to make things better."

Over and over again, it feels the team takes heat for the same few people being on the team, or acting certain ways. I could say, can you do better? People would say, yes. We could do better. Maybe you could, I don't know. If you could, I'd be glad for it. But it's very disheartening to see so much blame placed on the team where I feel it's misplaced. I can't and the rest of the team can't change people's minds. You will feel how you feel.

Shouldn't the team take heat for that?

To be blunt, maybe those people should be brought into line or asked to step down. When rules are constantly violated by those who are supposed to enforce them, the rules and the enforces become a joke in the eyes of many people.

You can't tell people that rules are important when the person standing next do you is demonstrating they are clearly not.

This is where accountability to the community comes into play. The team would gain credibility if it were willing to police itself with the same rigor it polices the community.

Accountability = credibility. The Team cannot have credibility without accountability to the community, as much as it might want to. This, I feel, is the core of the all issues pertaining to the team.

We asked for honest opinions in the poll that Jabe placed. Completely fair and Mostly Fair were the top winners. To me, that seems like a mostly satisfied community. Were those lies? Did people vote dishonestly? Or was that not a vote of satisfaction? I think whoever's in charge, people will be dissatisfied. When I've posted unhappiness or frustration, I've often gotten PMs of comfort or reassurances that what we do is appreciated. If I haven't responded to those PMs, I'm sorry. I appreciate those PMs because they keep me going. It's really hard to keep trying here, sometimes, with all the flack you take for the team as a whole and just trying to fill the shoes of the title, "Community Leader."

Polls are subject to interepretation. Maybe you do interpret that as satisfaction and just maintain status quo.

Maybe there is more to it. Maybe you can dig deeper.

Again and again we say that we're open. And we are--but we aren't open to people basing us and tearing us down. That hurts us and makes us angry and defensive like it would anyone else.

True. People bash because there is an underlying reason for it. Dig for that reason. When that reason is examined objectively, you may find a valid point there.

The typical reaction has not been any sort of digging. It is usally a unified front. "We are the team, these are the rules. Comply or leave."

In a forum setting, people want to talk, and they want to be heard. Members of a community feel they have a right to speak.

We feel VERY accountable to the community. We care VERY much about these people and these events and what we do here. I speak for everyone because I know we do. We wouldn't get so bummed out and upset and depressed about all this shit if we didn't care about all of it, all the work we put into it.

I would like the WE to be a community WE, not a Team WE. I just want a closer relationship between the Team and the Community.


Indulge me in this small request:

Read back to the posts on Tales for the first few months of it's existance. There was no talk of Team. There was no team. It was a group of enthusiastic players coming up with crazy ideas for RP. We were all happy and friendly. We were all on the same team.

There is way to much focus now on The Team. Part of me wonders if there should even be one. This is not a slam on the people on the Team.

Back in the day there was no team. There was just an RP community working together to have fun. For whatever reason, things got political.


In all honsesty, my heart aches over all of this. I just want to have fun. I want to RP with everyone here. I don't want to hear about how so and so is talking about me behind me back, or ripping on someone else, or accusing someone of.. Just make it stop.

Novall is right, politics kills RP.


What do I want from the team? Make the politics stop.. make the hurting/bashing stop. Rules and all that pale in significance.

Do this and you will have my complete and utter devotion.
((ok, I am getting emotional now. I better stop.))

[Novall]

Making the politics stop starts with every single leader in the community. That means guild leaders, city leaders, community leaders ect. You can't put that whole burden on admins/mods here. Its the game community thats created politics and brought it here to the forums.

As far as all the comments about the team. There has to be a team now. there are way to many forums and discussion groups for their not to be someone who's making sure there is some semblance of civility in it. Every forum on the internet has mods and admins. The team isnt some sort of council that governs RP across the span of Gorath.

[Dwilah]

We're still on the same team. Everyone on the "Team" is in the community and I keep saying we're all here for the same thing. Because we really are.

Tales has gotten really big and we have had a lot of smaller groups join together for the larger purpose. Smaller circles form and politics and grudges and stuff like that just happens when large communities get together. It's just natural.

Either way...watch Public. I'm about to post a big survey/critique thing.

[IagoBoom]

...could y'all just delete posts instead of locking them? I hate to see a constructive post prematurely ended because of one or two people that don't know when to take their issues to PMs.

1) Edit or delete the offending replies in the thread in question. A warning with a will be posted when this happens.

I don't want to start a fight. I want to point out that Shensen's request for modding rather than locking has been ...sorta overlooked with each time he's mentioned it.

The first choice listed for a moderator to handle a problem is to edit or delete an offending reply. This is what I've heard him ask, several times, and the only responses I've seen are "that's up to the mod."

The request I THINK Shen is making is: Could each mod look at what is being said and possibly prevent a thread-lock by editing, rather than closing the thread?

I HAVE seen this happen a few times, recently, and I hope it's a trend.

[Shensen]

Thanks Mr. Boom. Yes, that is exactly what I was trying rather unsuccessfully of getting at. I mean if the whole thread is garbage then yeah lock it up, but if there intent of the thread was to start a healthy discussion and the thread for the most part is on topic then it just seems a waste to lock it when the offending post could just be edited or removed.

[Krusshyk]

Here is the only problem I see with that idea (Shensen and Iago).

We don't really like changing or deleting things outright around here. Specificallly because when we need to take action against a problem user, we like having past problem posts actually intact so that we can go back and say, "Look...you were out of line back here, here, and here, and we asked you to stop, so don't say that this is out of the blue". If we delete those posts, we don't have that physical history.

[Shensen]

Hmm I see your point. Can you move posts or just threads? I know very few if any offer post moving so it's probably just threads. There really isn't an easy answer for it and once again just goes to show one person can ruin the enjoyment of others and punish everyone at the same time lol.

[E-bo Obi]

Last time I modded someone the offending party had nothing nice to say to me in PM's afterward. When I lock a post I get bitched at. So basically it is up to us which one we want to deal with. The minor bitching from a post being locked or the overall bitchyness of one user you modded. So far I have had less complaints when I have just locked. Actually only one lock, two because the follow-up thread got locked as well, I have ever done was complained about to my knowledge.

[Talaraine]

Okay so how would you suggest continuing the discussion that got derailed?