As Fair and Balanced as Possible

[Keer]

Last year, I outlined 4-5 things that would personally put Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith on the same echelon of Episodes 4 & 5. Those were:

1.) THE FIGHT - If the showdown between Obi-Wan & Anakin isn't the Jedi version of Ali-Frazier 1, then I'll be disappointed. This fight is the fulcrum upon which the two trilogies see-saw. It *has* to outdo ALL the others, Darth Maul included.

2.) We all know Mace Windu dies, but he better not go out like a bayhotch!! He's supposed to be the Jedi "Master of Disaster" so I need to see him go down like Tony Montana in Scarface. Hurting but hardcore. ("You want to play rough?! Ok. Say hello to my purple friend!" *SNAP-hisss-HUMMM!* )

3.) A believeable coup d'etat. Palpatine becomes Emperor. Fine. But don't make it like the Episode 6 ending. Emperor dies, Vader dies, so that definaitely means the Rebels win? Celebration on Coruscant? Nah! Don't make it end just for the sake of an ending.

4.) And last but not least, I really need to know how "the Darkside clouds everything." How does Palpatine pull the wool over the entire Jedi Council's perceptions, not too mention all the Masters and Knights in the field. I mean, he's what, in an office just down the block and around the corner from the Jedi Temple??? Regardless, they all work on the same city/planet.

If they can do just those 4 things, then I'll be alright with adding it to my "Star Wars Movies to Watch in Sequence" List. Right now Ep 4 & 5 are the only ones on it. It would be nice to add 3.

Starting at #1, The Fight:

It was good. Didn't live up to my personal expectations, but...I thought the fight against Count Dooku was better. Further, the Episode 5 fight between Luke and Vader I thought was better, and definitely Episode 1's Darth Maul versus Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

I'm really trying not to nit pick, but I think that the fight should have been decided with something cooler than Anakin's bad flip to Obi-Wan's "I have the high ground." And, not being an expert on Jedi combat strategy (no fan knows enough to be that), but I can't help myself thinking "Would having the high ground even matter to a Jedi/Sith?" Were they fighting under The Princess Bride rules?

Okay, so Anakin's judgement was clouded. He was pissed off about alot of things. The betrayal he felt from everyone from the Jedi Council, to Padme', to Obi-Wan. The betrayal he felt that he committed himself against the Jedi...Bad mindset, bad focus, newbie Sith Lord, be got cocky. I just would have liked that vulnerable moment to come in a different way.

#2: Mace Windu's Demise

I can dig it. He made Palpatine look almost as bad as Jango Fett. Though, I don't understand how Palpatine does better against Windu & 3-4 other Jedi Knights (he quickly killed the others) than he does against Windu alone. What was Windu doing while Palpatine was chopping one of the other guys? Couldn't get in a coup then, but he could break him down 1-on-1?

But, I guess in a stretch of thought you could say that those others got in Windu's way? *shrug*

#3, a Believable Coup d'Etat:

Though it was rushed, I can imagine that Republic citizens would be tired and afraid after a long and bitter war. The capital was just invaded after all and chief of state captured. So folks may have been in a lather enough to applaud a move to strict order.

#4, Show How "the Darkside Clouds Everything"

Still no joy here. There's alot of situations where I can throw my mind on the "mercy of the court" and just go along with, but for me this wasn't one of them. Clone Wars cartoons included, don't display this feat of grand illusion of a Sith Lord having tea with a collecion of some of the greatest Jedi of all time, Jedi Council, and none of them figuring it out until the last moments. Even then, Anakin had to rat him out for the Jedi to go beyond "Hmmm, this guy's shady. Maybe we should spy on him more actively."

Of all those special Dark Side tricks that Palpatine alluded to from the story of Darth Plagus, if he just even mentioned, for 2 seconds, that "And, yes, there is also a knowledge of cloaking your true nature and intentions from others using the Dark Side..." that would have been cool.

But, nah. What I see as a big cop out with Episode 1's "The Dark Side clouds everything." statement seems to be put out there as a Jedi Mind Trick.

- "How does the Dark Side cloud everything?"

- Well,...it just does. And that's all you need to know, junior.

- "Oh, okay. Sorry I asked. It's just that you're soliciting basic intelligence from me and the audience on so many other things, that I..."

- Zip it! Zippazipazipa zip zip.

In summary, was my main wish granted? Will I feel as eager to watch Episode 3 as I am in watching old ass Eps 4-5 with the dated technology, etc. even though I've seen them both a bajillion times?

Nah. Not even close.

I was *really* hoping to get a full "trio", if not a trilogy, to watch back-to-back-to-back. I WAS really pulling for this movie to match up. Is it as bad as the Eps 1 & 2? No way, it comfortably distances itself from those other prequels. For that, I am happy. Yet, still, when I want to wrap myself up in that long time ago in a galaxy far away it will be A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back that I reach for.

[Keer]

Now, to be fair, outside of my own personal list of satisfaction in the above post, there are other things about the movie that I feel were scores and misses.

Scores

- the tone was darker than the others. Grittier.

- Despite my fawning over Natalie Portman in other posts (which is exagerrated) I thought she was great! Most Believable Character In The Film. I have always been a fan of her acting talent from other films.

- Hayden Christensen's acting was much better than his debut last movie.

- Comraderie between Obi-Wan and Anakin. It could have went deeper, but in the time alotted I did feel that Obi-Wan and Anakin were closer and and enjoyed the realtionship that Obi-Wan wistfully mentions when talking to Luke on Tattooine in Episode 4.

- Opening "crawl". I think that Ep 3 has the best opening set-up prologue crawl of all the rest of the films.

- Vulture Bots. Little droids that land on your ship and rip it apart. "Mecha-Gremlins". Cool concept.

- Count Dooku vs. Obi-Wan & Anakin. To me this was the best fight in the movie. More of how I always envisioned Jedi would fight.

- General Grievous characterization. Hacking, coughing, and lethal. It was hard to take my eyes off of him. Especially when he walked.

There are many more of these types of smaller things that I liked. And now, for the other side...


Misses

- Opening with the "Largest Space Battle in the All of the Films..." Didn't we read that earlier? Where was it? There *was* a struggle against the Vulture Bots, some missile evasion, and a small bit of dogfighting with the Droid Starfighters but, in my mind I'm thinking there was gonna be a titanic clash of capital ships. Big ships did take nasty hits, but all of that was in the background. That whole "space battle opening" was more about what happens to Obi-Wan & Anakin on their way to Gen. Grievous' flagship.

- I think that the question has been answered once and for all now. There *had* to be other Jedi surviving in the galaxy besides Yoda after the Empire took over. There's no way that all of the "thousands of Jedi throughout the galaxy" that Palpatine's sidekick mentions make it back to Coruscant in-between the time Anakin sends the false beacon signal to when Obi-Wan and Yoda reset it to warn them away.

If all of the Jedi were dead, why reset the beacon at all?

Only thing that I can think of, is that there are remaining Jedi and Vader hunts them down one by one in the intervening years leading up to A New Hope. What a series that would make! Vader using all the determination and ruthlessness that he used to hunt down Luke and the Millenium Falcon against the remainder of the Jedi Order. Doubt we'll ever see that, though. But, I digress.

Once again, many other things, but oh well. It's all over now.

[KirtViza]

Ok my turn....

What I was Looking for:and what I got

1. I wanted to also know about the "Darkside clouding everything", I mean I can understand how he kept his "Darkside" from coming out to alude them but still, there had to be more then "Hes shady, have ani watch him".

2. Obi Vs Ani, I was hoping for breaks inbetween the fight and a moment for Obi to tell Anakin whatever, and make this fight more..Passionate, I mean look at the fight with Luke and Vader, Luke stops and tells vader he wont fight him, that there is still good in him, if thats true which it was, Why didnt Obi-wan sense it? I mean come on.

3. Palp Vs Mace. I knew that Mace would soooo Own him and that anakin would save palp, but come on it was the lamest Death I ever saw, I loved watching Mace hold palp at bay and watching palp use so much of the darkside in an attempt to win, yet lose but I was wanting to see Anakin go toe to toe with Mace and it didnt happen.

4.The hidden Lovers. Ya ya, Im a dude but I wanted to see them hiding their love more in shadowy corners, and I wanted to see them show more of him as a character doing what he felt was right for his family, but they just showed him as a power hungry, weak minded fool, and Yes I must agree Nat gave a good performance

5. The openig space battle...Where was it? I didnt see anything it was said to be massive and huge yet all I saw were two jedi starfighters making their way to a capital ship.

6. I truly wanted to feel the energy, and drama from anakins fall yet it was so quick I was left with nothing, I mean anakin should have attacked the emperor and lost, only to return to the temple and tell mace, then come back and know he had to save the emperor to save his family.

I will say that Hayden was alot better this time around, I love his performace but I didnt feel what i wanted to, I remember the first time I watched the trilogy, I was struck in AWE when vader said he was lukes father, I remember just not having anything to say, and the fight scene wasnt as flashy as the new ones but they were filled with such an amount of force that you felt that you were standing there watching and hoping that somehow the bad guy would lose cause you couldnt stand to see luke die..

Overall I was planing on seeing this again and unless somone buys me a ticket i wont untill it comes to dvd just so i can have the collection and be done with it...Thanx GL you just droped my standards on your SW film making once again....

[Keer]

6. ....I mean anakin should have attacked the emperor and lost, only to return to the temple and tell mace, then come back and know he had to save the emperor to save his family.

Now that's a scenario that I would have liked to have seen.

[Novall]

Something you all need to remember or know about Mace if you didnt already is that his fighting style draws from dark side energies. Only he and one other jedi have ever mastered this form of fighting and been able to remain on the light side, but eventually the other jedi did fall and ironically Mace killed him during the clone wars.

So keep that in mind when you think about the battle between palp and mace. I havent seen the movie yet, but knowing some of these little tidbits I hope is going to make me have alot less questions at the end.

[Skorixor]

on windu vs palp

you have to realize the coniving bastard palp is...the end where palp was getting pwned was a setup...he was pretending to lose at that point, to sway anakin...pure and simple...palp could have gotten back up and started fighting anytime if he wanted too

if he was so pwned by windu, why did palp get up off the ground like the whole thing was no big deal?

but it was a great fight!

[Keer]

1. Mace Windu's fighting style being based on Dark Side energy is all Expanded Universe. It's never displayed or even hinted at in the movies. If there's *really* anything that we all should remember or know about Windu or anything else in Star Wars is that Lucas (and by extension the films and Clone cartoons) don't recognize the Expanded Universe as being on an equal level of authority.

If we kept in mind half of what the Expanded Universe says about Star Wars while watching the movies we'd be more confused rather than more enlightened.

In the Jedi Academy Trilogy Luke is running around building complicated machines and touching people on the forehead to determine their Force potential. Are we to assume the simple ol' midi-chlorian blood test eluded him? Midi-chlorians are a newer concpet, but still it goes to show that Lucas isn't caring about matching up his stories with anything written in the EU books. For all we know the upcoming TV show could refute anything the books say about Windu and dark side usage.

Further, look at all the back pedalling the EU had to do to distinguish Boba Fett's history once Lucas says he's a clone of Jango. The movies are the big top of the circus. EU is a side show.

2. That "set-up" defeat of Palpatine by Windu is a tenuous assumption at best. Far from pure and simple. Windu had Palpatine unarmed and on his back before Anakin was even on the scene.

I don't expect to be spoon fed the why's and how's of a plot, but If we're supposed to infer that Palpatine knew Anakin was coming...it's pretty lame and lazy storytelling.

There's also no solid knowledge to be gained either way from how Palpatine gets up. How is it so clear that Palpatine could have gotten back up and continued to fight? I mean, really? At best, it's a stretch on a thread that's barely there in the first place.

[Skorixor]

2. That "set-up" defeat of Palpatine by Windu is a tenuous assumption at best. Far from pure and simple. Windu had Palpatine unarmed and on his back before Anakin was even on the scene.

I don't expect to be spoon fed the why's and how's of a plot, but If we're supposed to infer that Palpatine knew Anakin was coming...it's pretty lame and lazy storytelling.

There's also no solid knowledge to be gained either way from how Palpatine gets up. How is it so clear that Palpatine could have gotten back up and continued to fight? I mean, really? At best, it's a stretch on a thread that's barely there in the first place.

Ummm, it was TOTALLY a setup...yes windu beat him, but palp could have escaped from that easily...umm hello? force push windu off the ledge? or any other variety of ways...

2nd, we saw windu was redirecting the force lightening back into him...have you seen ANY other character, that when they got hit with force lightening get up like it was no big deal? let's see, luke nope, yoda nope, vader nope, anyone else nope....palp got up and walked around like nothing even happened...so he truly wasn't taking that much dmg, plus he said rather calmly (unlike luke who was screaming when he got zapped) that anakin better save him or he'll never learn the secret to keep padme alive

[Keer]

2. That "set-up" defeat of Palpatine by Windu is a tenuous assumption at best. Far from pure and simple. Windu had Palpatine unarmed and on his back before Anakin was even on the scene.

I don't expect to be spoon fed the why's and how's of a plot, but If we're supposed to infer that Palpatine knew Anakin was coming...it's pretty lame and lazy storytelling.

There's also no solid knowledge to be gained either way from how Palpatine gets up. How is it so clear that Palpatine could have gotten back up and continued to fight? I mean, really? At best, it's a stretch on a thread that's barely there in the first place.

Ummm, it was TOTALLY a setup...yes windu beat him, but palp could have escaped from that easily...umm hello? force push windu off the ledge? or any other variety of ways...

2nd, we saw windu was redirecting the force lightening back into him...have you seen ANY other character, that when they got hit with force lightening get up like it was no big deal? let's see, luke nope, yoda nope, vader nope, anyone else nope....palp got up and walked around like nothing even happened...so he truly wasn't taking that much dmg, plus he said rather calmly (unlike luke who was screaming when he got zapped) that anakin better save him or he'll never learn the secret to keep padme alive

1. ("Umm"??) Like what? The stuff you're saying is supposed to be clearly evident? Nothing that you're claiming is as obvious as you're making it out to be.

By your logic, *anyone* with Force capability at *anytime* could push someone off a ledge, hill, mountain. What's really obvious (if you want to use examples) is that force pushes aren't a viable option all of the time or else they'd be doing it alot more. By your same logic, once again who's to say that Windu wouldn't have "blocked" the force push. Obi-Wan and Anakin did the push and it blew both of them away. Even if it was a setup as you claim, who's to say that Palpatine wouldn't end up being repelled off the ledge as well?

And once again, Anakin wasn't even in the scene when Palpatine was on his back saberless. But, still, it's supposed to be TOTALLY so obvious a set up?

("Hello"??) Yeah, I can "hear" you. Really, man. If you have the "It Should Be Obvious" Jedi/Sith Combat Manual, please post it....TOTALLY.

2. Force Lightning - if Palpatine "truly wasn't taking that much damage" I guess the face damage he took was from some bad Botox Bacta injections that just decided to rash out during the fight.

So he got up and walked. Ooohh. Have YOU ever seen ANY other character take facial damage from Force Lightning? Let's see, luke nope, yoda nope, vader nope, anyone else nope....

So I guess not all Force Lightning is created equal, huh?

If you really want to believe that's what happenned, fine. I'm not knocking you, but don't try to come off condescendingly like it's the most obvious thing in the world.

That or, ummm, take a look above at how all of your examples don't hold up to, ummm, absolute judgement....Hello.

[Skorixor]

2. That "set-up" defeat of Palpatine by Windu is a tenuous assumption at best. Far from pure and simple. Windu had Palpatine unarmed and on his back before Anakin was even on the scene.

I don't expect to be spoon fed the why's and how's of a plot, but If we're supposed to infer that Palpatine knew Anakin was coming...it's pretty lame and lazy storytelling.

There's also no solid knowledge to be gained either way from how Palpatine gets up. How is it so clear that Palpatine could have gotten back up and continued to fight? I mean, really? At best, it's a stretch on a thread that's barely there in the first place.

Ummm, it was TOTALLY a setup...yes windu beat him, but palp could have escaped from that easily...umm hello? force push windu off the ledge? or any other variety of ways...

2nd, we saw windu was redirecting the force lightening back into him...have you seen ANY other character, that when they got hit with force lightening get up like it was no big deal? let's see, luke nope, yoda nope, vader nope, anyone else nope....palp got up and walked around like nothing even happened...so he truly wasn't taking that much dmg, plus he said rather calmly (unlike luke who was screaming when he got zapped) that anakin better save him or he'll never learn the secret to keep padme alive

1. ("Umm"??) Like what? The stuff you're saying is supposed to be clearly evident? Nothing that you're claiming is as obvious as you're making it out to be.

By your logic, *anyone* with Force capability at *anytime* could push someone off a ledge, hill, mountain. What's really obvious (if you want to use examples) is that force pushes aren't a viable option all of the time or else they'd be doing it alot more. By your same logic, once again who's to say that Windu wouldn't have "blocked" the force push. Obi-Wan and Anakin did the push and it blew both of them away. Even if it was a setup as you claim, who's to say that Palpatine wouldn't end up being repelled off the ledge as well?

And once again, Anakin wasn't even in the scene when Palpatine was on his back saberless. But, still, it's supposed to be TOTALLY so obvious a set up?

("Hello"??) Yeah, I can "hear" you. Really, man. If you have the "It Should Be Obvious" Jedi/Sith Combat Manual, please post it....TOTALLY.

2. Force Lightning - if Palpatine "truly wasn't taking that much damage" I guess the face damage he took was from some bad Botox Bacta injections that just decided to rash out during the fight.

So he got up and walked. Ooohh. Have YOU ever seen ANY other character take facial damage from Force Lightning? Let's see, luke nope, yoda nope, vader nope, anyone else nope....

So I guess not all Force Lightning is created equal, huh?

If you really want to believe that's what happenned, fine. I'm not knocking you, but don't try to come off condescendingly like it's the most obvious thing in the world.

That or, ummm, take a look above at how all of your examples don't hold up to, ummm, absolute judgement....Hello.

I'm not being condescending but open your eyes man

windu is over him, palp is saying he has no power left and for anakin to save him...anaking whacks windus arm...then palp says "POWER, INFINITE POWER!" he then shocks the shit out of windu and throws him a mile away

did the force lightning recharge his force batteries? nope

[Krusshyk]

I don't know that I would say it was obivous that Palpatine threw the fight.

The fact that his lightsaber was a bazillion miles away and he was on his back before Anakin showed up is kind of interesting. Mace had a good window of opportunity to slice palpatine open. It's possible the Emperor was so convinced that Anakin would turn AND get there in time to save him, but I don't know if he would have left himself in that position...

He is a very calculating being...leaving a window for your untimely demise doesn't seem very calculating.

As for the Emporer calling out to Anakin...

It's possible that THAT was a call for help. Palpatine knew Windu was coming...I buy that. It's possible that the Emperor knew he couldn't defeat Windu without help. Maybe. I dunno. He did seem a little surprised that Windu was there "so quickly". Could have been an act, could have been genuine surprise.

But the fact remains that Mace did have ample opportunity to end the fight...I don't see the Emperor leaving himself in that position intentionally.

[Keer]

windu is over him, palp is saying he has no power left and for anakin to save him...anaking whacks windus arm...then palp says "POWER, INFINITE POWER!" he then shocks the shit out of windu and throws him a mile away

did the force lightning recharge his force batteries? nope

Maybe something to do with Windu just getting his arm chopped off and being in pain keeps him from reflecting the lightning back at Palpatine, ya' think?

Why would Palpatine keep shocking Windu after he's consistently getting it thrown back at him? But with no arm and lightsaber to keep blocking it...."Hmm, maybe I'll try again and save the electrolysis on my face."

I'm not being condescending but open your eyes man

"Hey, Keer, I'm not being condescending but your eyes are closed...." Thanks!

I guess they are still closed when I see Anakin not being around during the fight, Palpatine getting cooked by his own lightning, and taking advantage when Windu's guard is finally down. Those are all closer to the "obvious" and alot more solid than the 10 pounds you've been trying to fit in the thimble.

If Palpatine threw the fight, I guess he forgot to catch the fight in Episode 6 when a mere toss sends him into a fall. Force lightning backlashing into him as well...but it didn't really hurt, just made him stronger....so he decides to die.

I'll leave it at that since my eyes are closed, thus we're definitely not seeing the same movie.

[Seret Sajet]

Guys, please, you both have very good points and I want to see this discusion continue WITHOUT you both taking jabs at each other. The constant "Um, Helloooo" and "Wake up!" remarks need not make their way into every post. I really, really don't want to have to lock the thread because of it. Dial it down a bit. Remember it is only opinions based on what we saw in the film.

But on topic I do want to offer my own thoughts.

- Sidious was powerfull and calculating. By the amount of times he says "forseen" in the 3 films we know he can see how things will play out. He staged an entire war, why couldn't he stage one fight?

- He visually and audibly pretended to be sapped of energy. After he knew he had Anakin on his side he returned with even more power. To me this showed he was faking the defeat. Now I do want to believe some of that defeat was due to Mace's skills but I can't give him all the credit.

- Anakin heard Palpatine's voice in his head in the same manner that Luke heard Obi-wan's voice at the end of A New Hope. To me this is simple Sith influence. What is Palpatine if not the galaxies greatest manipulator.

But like I said, these are just my views of the film. My opinions side with Skorixor while I still think Keer makes very valid points. This arguement will never be settled, not completely. We just have to take it however we feel we have to.

[Hashum]

In the Jedi Academy Trilogy Luke is running around building complicated machines and touching people on the forehead to determine their Force potential. Are we to assume the simple ol' midi-chlorian blood test eluded him? Midi-chlorians are a newer concpet, but still it goes to show that Lucas isn't caring about matching up his stories with anything written in the EU books. For all we know the upcoming TV show could refute anything the books say about Windu and dark side usage.

Ok, while I agree EU takes a back seat and may have to correct itself to fit what the movies have already presented, there is a lot of information that that is good.

In this particular case with Luke, The Emperor supposedly had all the Jedi information destroyed when he came to power. And the actual Jedi were "all but extinct". So there's no reason to believe Luke knew about the midiclorian, he simply found that when he probed someone's mind if they were attuned to the Force they would repel his probe at a certain point. The midiclorian are behind that block but Luke has know way of knowing that. Much like the Flu, you see the symptoms from the surface and can determine what's causing it, the Flu but you can't see the virus or Midiclorian until someone starts asking why.

Now in Mace Windu's case I don't really know nor do I really care about his dark side connection. All we really need to know was he was bad ass. But as to the assumption of throwing the fight, let's face it, if Yoda the strongest Jedi of the time and leader of the Jedi couldn't beat palp then why would Mace be able to?

[Keer]

But like I said, these are just my views of the film. My opinions side with Skorixor while I still think Keer makes very valid points. This arguement will never be settled, not completely. We just have to take it however we feel we have to.

No doubt. But in all fairness, and as can be seen the "Umms", "Hellos" and capital keystrokes didn't start with me. The first jab came at me, not from me. Even in initial disagreements, I think that I followed the tone expressed in the Subject Line (As Fair and Balanced As Possible) The response to that then got on the "Obvious Horse".

Feeling that "If you don't start none, there won't be none" didn't work out so that's why I just let it go in my last post.

Now, back on topic. As for Palpatine beating Yoda, Yoda threw back at Palpatine and fell because his little claws couldn't hold on the side of the banister. The fall hurt him up to the point where he couldn't continue, in my opinion. Palpatine takes his nonsensical fall, later on down the line in Episode 6.

But those and other quirky Force happennings I addressed in the "Midichlorian Labor Unon" post. What ya think over there? :lol: