The Jedi vs BH Debate

[toront]

Now I didn't even get to catch the other thread while it was open, but the moderators have said that starting a new thread to discuss the topic was okay, as long as everyone plays by the rules. I think we keep it general, in relation to the game and be sure not to generalize (all BHs are this was, all Jedi like this) or to call out names specifically.

My take on it is this: Bounty Hunters taking Jedi missions from a terminal in game that is meant to give Jedi missions is not griefing. Waiting for a Jedi to leave their house is not griefing. Hunting a Jedi a second time after they managed to kill you is not griefing. Killing a Jedi a second time (assuming it's a new mission/TEF and that the Jedi's visibility isn't bugged) is not griefing. If 5 BHs show up all with your mission, it's not griefing. It's a hunt. If you are on the terminals, you deserve to be hunted. I don't care how slow you get xp in groups. I don't care how weak you are as a padawan. Jedi was not meant to be ground in a day, or even a week. The xp gain is slow for a reason.

I am quickly becoming sickened by how this game is catering to Jedi. I feel that the Developers that worked on the game at launch and have since left (Holocron, JustG, etc.) had the right vision of Jedi in the game. The current development team just seems to be listening to the pleas of the Jedi masses.

The grouping visibility change does not bother me. At the end of the day, this is an MMO, and it's not meant to be a "go kill things solo" experience.

The changes to missions so that you can no longer tell their Jedi skill level or pick a speific target are just ludacris. Either or would have sufficed, but both is just stupid. Now you can't tell the difference between hunting a 30k Padawan that got careless or an FRS Jedi Enforcer Rank 3. Jedi will kill any BH in a straight 1v1, and they've eliminated the ability to try and get 3-5 BHs together to take out a full template. I understand catching a Jedi off guard (like duelling in Theed ) is possible, but it's not as rewarding as killing a Jedi with only you and your friends' skills.

From what I read of the Jedi forums, it seems the majority of Jedi just want to have their cake and eat it too. It's not meant to be risk vs reward, it's supposed to be all reward baby!

Even the time tested excuse of "it took me so long to grind Jedi, I deserve it" is meaningless as of the next publish. It seems this week I've helped unlock more Melichae missions than I ever have. I suspect that depending on when the publish hits, nearly all those players will be over 200 Jedi skill points by then end of July or first week of August, something that took me 3 months to do.

This is not so much a knock to those that unlocked and will be done quickly. If the system were this way for my grind, I would be done quickly too. I just am disheartened by the complete lack of difficulty or risk to weild what is by no objections the Alpha Class of PvE and PvP in this game.

[Skorixor]

what has also ruined it is all of the double xp weeks...it has made anyone that wanted to be a jedi, the easiest possible way to attain it

so basically the devs haave made jedi easier to attain, and easier to hide...both bad things imo...swg is going to turn into SW:Jedi Knight where tons of people are running around with a lightsaber

[DuoXDuoX]

I aint complainin

[Novall]

Toront, its been this way since pre-CU knight saber block was 80%. Jedi are the cash cow of SWG and will continue to be. In the end I expect Jedi to become a starter profession and not an unlock profesion. Every aspect of PvP is dominated by the jedi, be it BH missions or GCW.

losing 300k xp isnt a risk to a fully templated knight, and with all the double xp going around...there should be no paddies left that arnt full template who unlocked durring the time of the CU.

I've also met alot of Jedi who feel that just cause they carry a saber means they dont deserve to die or be killed. Thats the whole problem at the heart of the current jedi issue.

[Isleh]

New players are coming into this game because that want to play a Jedi. The BH that started all this picked up this game because he wanted to play a Jedi.

1 of 2 things have to happen.

1 - There has to be other "alpha" professions besides Jedi if SOE wants people to play anything other than Jedi. By "alpha" I mean quest based progression beyond the Elite for every other profession.
2 - There has to be no "alpha" professions.

The chances for option 2 happening is 0.

I am hoping that the making a master BH the only ones who hunt Jedi is paving the road to an "alpha" BH.

[Skorixor]

I am hoping that the making a master BH the only ones who hunt Jedi is paving the road to an "alpha" BH.

but in this philosophy, a master BH can't tackle an Alpha jedi, so how do yuo achieve alpha BH?

[Va'len Grey]

Alpha level professions for things other than Jedi would be nice. I wouldn't mind an Alpha level teras Kasi stuff. Or someone with crazy gun skills.

But that is alot of work... and i don't see it happening, but it's a damn good idea.

[Hashum]

After publish 20 you can still get a squad of BH's to attack a Jedi it just requires more leg work. You don't have to attack the Jedi your mission is for when you find out who it is. Once you know they're beyond your skills alone you can seek out another BH with the mission and then gank him.

That's not to say I agree with the changes because I don't, I agree with Toront one of the two changes would have been better then using both no name and no payout giving the BH at least some idea of what they were up against.

I agree with Skor on all this double XP though, I didn't get to enjoy most of that benefit as every time they offered it I was unable to play due to RL issues. However it's gotten exessive that's for sure.

The thing that bothers me the most is just hearing Jedi complain about BH's coming after them. Its possible to avoid them completely by doing as a Jedi in this time would have had to do, and that's keep it under wraps. Hunt solo, sure it's slower but that's what the Jedi's life would have been like.

The worst thing about this whole system is that it favor's Jedi in every way now. Jedi are the prey and so they should be at a disadvantage at least in certain area's. A BH should not be able to take out a full template Jedi head to head, but a BH should be able to use techniques to at least stand a chance. And unfortunately that's become much harder since they can't group up.

[Sai'nu]

Ok, I'm going to throw in my two credits now.

To me... the issue has, and always will be, balance, balance, balance.

Making it so only Master BHs can hunt Jedi is a partially bad move because this one... detracts from the 'mix and match' basis upon which CU was designed now in the first place. This also makes it 'worse' for a Newer Jedi in that their most likely going to be the only ones hunted unless they make it so a Master Bounty Hunter 'can' go toe to toe with a complete template Jedi and/or make BH into a second 'alpha' template allowing for 'new' tree branches to be added for them. Perhaps this should be done for every 'type' profession to offer Artisans, Ranged, Melee, and Entertainer characters something to do beyone Elite Masteries. But, even then, we will always reach an end game point on any template.

So, to me, the issue is balance. I just can't see the 'honor' nor the point it letting a lvl 80 kick ass profession freely kick another professions butt with very little chance of defending themselves. Do I believe one should go on the terminals for doing dumb stuff? Yes. Do I think I should be penalized for my death? Yes. Do I want a system where someone of only my same level can come after me? Yes. This is the only balance I want to see. I don't 'want' to be able to 'know' I"m going to win. But, I also do not like the alternative 'I know I'm going to lose' pushed on me as well. And I don't want that for other players etiher.

If the current system stayed... without any changes to BH... including the allowable 'gank squads' as their called; I'd only want to see a system where a low lvl Jedi could be paired with another Jedi to defend themselves at low lvl from high lvl attackers. Am I asking too much? Perhaps. But, my opinion 'should' have just as much weight as the next guy.

[Isleh]

I am hoping that the making a master BH the only ones who hunt Jedi is paving the road to an "alpha" BH.

but in this philosophy, a master BH can't tackle an Alpha jedi, so how do yuo achieve alpha BH?

Quests. Much like the village but 'flavored' for the BH feel that unlocks new skills.

Reach master BH and successfully hunt a number Jedi. At that point, an agent of Vader approaches you and you start down the road to an "alpha" BH.

Maybe taking you into Jaba's palace to eventually work for and then maybe finally against Boba Fett competing to gain a bounty. You have to force Fett to retreat ( non of that crap about killing Boba Fett ) and still defeat the Mark and gain the bounty.

Once that is done once you've got the mark before Fett, you've unlocked an begin the "alpha" BH grind. Maybe the only way to progress is to collect Jedi bounties. Make it so that Jedi 10 levels or lower the "alpha" BH means no experience.

[Ekade]

New players are coming into this game because that want to play a Jedi. The BH that started all this picked up this game because he wanted to play a Jedi.

1 of 2 things have to happen.

1 - There has to be other "alpha" professions besides Jedi if SOE wants people to play anything other than Jedi. By "alpha" I mean quest based progression beyond the Elite for every other profession.
2 - There has to be no "alpha" professions.

The chances for option 2 happening is 0.

I am hoping that the making a master BH the only ones who hunt Jedi is paving the road to an "alpha" BH.

Yeah.. and the problem becomes this.. Unless you are willing to spend hundreds of hours grinding, you may as well not even bother with any sort of PvP combat because you will get destroyed.

Healthy competiton = fun. Futility = boredom.

Balance anyone?

[Skorixor]

this is what swg pvp/high-end pvp has come to:
jedi who can grind out a complete template in less than a month, and then there's the rest of us...

can I find 1 or 2 other people and whiz through the DWB....nope...can possibly do it with 2 full regular teams but who can organize that? only very large guilds maybe...

jedi can roam any city and hack all day and no one can touch them...VERY starwarsy....saw it just today...jedi fights in theed...imp jedi in coronet whacking reb npcs with no care in the world...

[DuoXDuoX]

I agree with you there skor they need to go back to the going over when you kill a npc thing but they wont so what can we do.

[warsloth]

can you be a jedi and a BH? or is that too evil?

[toront]

this is what swg pvp/high-end pvp has come to:
jedi who can grind out a complete template in less than a month, and then there's the rest of us...

can I find 1 or 2 other people and whiz through the DWB....nope...can possibly do it with 2 full regular teams but who can organize that? only very large guilds maybe...

jedi can roam any city and hack all day and no one can touch them...VERY starwarsy....saw it just today...jedi fights in theed...imp jedi in coronet whacking reb npcs with no care in the world...

The DWB is hard for a full group of full templated Jedi. That place is just flat out mean, no matter who you are.

As for the ability to have balance, I do believe that a BH Ranking System or some type of Alpha class would work to allow the bounty hunters to compete one on one mission wise.

As far as non-Jedi in mass PvP, after publish 19, it is not as dire as you all may think. TKM/Doc 4004s are Jedi killers, not to mention that if you can damage a Jedi enough, their mind bar WILL run out. It's happened before. Jedi are still tougher than any normy, but they have been balanced to be far less "godly" on the battlefield like they were immediately following the CU. We now rely on our mind bar rather than our huge force bar.

I don't argue that Jedi are great the way they are, but their are methods to defeating them. My main concern in this thread was 1v1. It's as simple as you, the BH, having to be the absolute best you can be, have all your foods up, next to zero lag and you MIGHT beat Joe Schmo Jedi. To counter that, there should be a way to get a BH 1v1 to be more even with a Jedi.