RP Cannon? How do we merge differing opinions?

[Sai'nu]

Ok, what I want us to discuss here is a build up to the PvP etiquette. First off I want everyone that does take a look that this to post what 'their' view on the in game environment is. Do you take what you see as being our concrete present? Or... do you play as if your still in the cannon movies?

Keep in mind this link as well:

http://swgtales.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2586

Let's see what we're all thinking 'before' we make the next step. I stress... let's only post our 'own' views and don't comment on how someone else is expressing their's in here. Thank you.


I lean towards cannon playing myself taking into account the Rebels in Mos Eisley as temporary gaurds that have shown up 'since' the destruction of the first Death Star... my characters don't 'know' what's going to happen next because this could be a sign that the Rebellion is winning.

After we get far enough into this... 'then' we'll work more on this:

http://swgtales.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5092

[Ekade]

My personal canon leans heavily in the directions of the movies and the "official" sources like the EU and RPG books. I came here to play Star Wars.

The game has drifted from this and that has made it a little frustrating at times. Basically, like many others, I find myself ignoring a lot of things in order to maintain the Star-Wars feel in my mind.


Regarding PvP etiquette:

I think people do need to consider their surroundings when enterting a venue looking for a fight. In some places, it makes sense that one can walk into a cantina, start a brawl, and walk away without encountering some sort of local authority. In other places, they would get arrested and there would be consequences.

Let's consider our popular RP venues and discuss how easy it is to throw ones weight around, per se:

- Club Midnight: It had a regular security force. I expect this would be a bad place for an indivivdual to start a fight or try to kidnap someone.

- Roba: There is a regular security force that does watch the cantina. Again, this is a bad place to cause a rucus.

- Lucky Despot: Now here I am sure we will get some disagreement on this, but I had always assumed that Lady Valarian was a minor, but still influential, crime lord. I had assumed that this place was just as well protected as Club Midnight or the Roba. However, based on past encounters, many people don't agree or have not considered that possibility.
For the sake of fairness, maybe we do consider this venue a free-for all. I know people want to have a place where they can be scum and villains. It may be a departure from my personal view of what is canon, but in some cases fun should trump canon.

- Friday Kreetle gigs: There has been no RP security force established at any of these, so I am not sure what makes sense. I am inclined to think that there is come degree of civility enforced at venues where a popular band would play. The galaxies top band would not be performing in outright dangerous places.


However, we may encounter a point where canon becomes a barrier to RP. People like to come to events to play out elements of their story arcs. What is more important? To follow canon or to have some RP at a public event that allows other people to watch and/or get involved?

The simple answer: Have fun.

Consider canon carefully, but feel free to bend it a little if it seems to be getting in the way of good stories, ideas, and fun. If you bend canon too much, people start to complain about bad RP. If you don't bend it at all, you may find yourself a little too restricted.


It may help if you ask yourself 2 questions:
1) Do I think what I am about to attempt is plausible in this reality?

Me and my detachment of imperial troops will enter this cantina arrest our target.

2) Will the target of my action/RP think what I am about to do is plausible in this reality?

We are safe in this cantina as this is a city of rebel sympathizers. At any sign of imperial activity in the city, word will spread and we will sneak out the back long before any troops arrive. We're not stupid enough to be caught off guard by imperial goons.

[DuoXDuoX]

imo cannon is out the window. This game is a play on the time period with some 2000 odd players that are added to the universe. Each one with the ability to change history. In other words we wouldnt be there in cannon so since we are there we have the ability to mold history into going in a different direction.

[Ekade]

imo cannon is out the window. This game is a play on the time period with some 2000 odd players that are added to the universe. Each one with the ability to change history. In other words we wouldnt be there in cannon so since we are there we have the ability to mold history into going in a different direction.

We can only change the history/future of our characters. Everything else in the game is pretty much static.

From a story-telling perspective, it is easier if everyone is singing from the same sheet of music. This is why the topic of discussion "reality" and canon is important.


I was RP'ing with one guy in a cantina that actually thought our characters were in the future. He was referring to the plantets in SWG from the perspective that they were colonized by humans from earth.

Many of us feel that RP is "better" if some of the base assumptions about our reality are agreed upon. I believe this is the purpose of Sainu's post, to get us thinking about that "reality" when we consider a PvP encounter during the course of our RP.

[Sai'nu]

Thank you, Ekade, that was exactly what I was aiming at. So... with our two posters so far we essentially have...

We're in a Different Timeline: 1
We're in the movie Timeline: 2

Ok, in regards to what has been said so far... and what I was trying to get at in the PvP etiquette thread is that we 'all' have differing views of what we consider to be 'active' in our RP/PvP and what we chose to 'ignore.'

The first step to solving a problem is admitting we have one. aka... what you think is acceptable in a situation... someone else may not and they have that right to think that way. Just as you have your's to think your way.

So, continue to post your thoughts of where we are and how 'you' play and try to edge off of commenting on what other people think about the in game environment for now... I just want your individual thoughts of what 'you' think about while your playing in our little game world.

[Jabe Adaks]

If I really cared for canon, I wouldn't have become a Jedi.

With that said, my take on this is that I strive to make my RP as realistic and fascinating as possible with the people around me. To me I want to create situations and stories that make the people here have fun and in the end make them think critically about what has happened.

I honestly don't hold canon in high regard, the only reason I treat it as I do is out of respect for the immersion of other players. Lucas made good movies 25 years ago. He has recently provided background films that did not push the envelope for science fiction writing, but did innovate theatrical effects. In other words, I don't care for Lucas' style. I am not about to impose severe limitations on my RP because he was unwilling to do better or made Star Wars the way he wanted it. Lucas was clear that he didn't care what fans thought in recent movies. In turn I don't care what Lucas would think of my RP.

To me, this galaxy is "our" Star Wars. As a player I will strive to not deviate from this and to create realistic immersion for myself and those that I game with. It just seems to me that players who try to stay very strict with canon would have a much more enjoyable time banging a square peg in to a round hole.

Jabe

[Viceroy Odantis]

well but there's a line i think.

Canon is why we're here in the first place. Though its been bent all to hell. If we toss it all out the window, then i can get away with rping as a cyborg from the planet krypton

[Ekade]

well but there's a line i think.

Canon is why we're here in the first place. Though its been bent all to hell. If we toss it all out the window, then i can get away with rping as a cyborg from the planet krypton

pfft..

We both know that I destroyed krypton with my death ray, but not before assimilating all the technology and power of the entire planet, making me invincible.

[Jabe Adaks]

well but there's a line i think.

Canon is why we're here in the first place. Though its been bent all to hell. If we toss it all out the window, then i can get away with rping as a cyborg from the planet krypton

I'm not saying I am going to toss it out the window. But I do accept what we have been dealt. SOE has given us the concept of rampant and illegal cloning in the outer rim, not to mention Jedi... I mean what I am saying is that I am making an effort but I am still going to RP that I am a Jedi in this time period. I am still going to RP that cloning is an everyday event... because thats what I have been given to work with.

Jabe

[Hashum]

If I really cared for canon, I wouldn't have become a Jedi.

With that said, my take on this is that I strive to make my RP as realistic and fascinating as possible with the people around me. To me I want to create situations and stories that make the people here have fun and in the end make them think critically about what has happened.

I honestly don't hold canon in high regard, the only reason I treat it as I do is out of respect for the immersion of other players. Lucas made good movies 25 years ago. He has recently provided background films that did not push the envelope for science fiction writing, but did innovate theatrical effects. In other words, I don't care for Lucas' style. I am not about to impose severe limitations on my RP because he was unwilling to do better or made Star Wars the way he wanted it. Lucas was clear that he didn't care what fans thought in recent movies. In turn I don't care what Lucas would think of my RP.

To me, this galaxy is "our" Star Wars. As a player I will strive to not deviate from this and to create realistic immersion for myself and those that I game with. It just seems to me that players who try to stay very strict with canon would have a much more enjoyable time banging a square peg in to a round hole.

Jabe

Ok, I personally don't see that any resolution to this problem can be reached. Why? Because there's no way we can get everyone to agree on so many factors. Now Cannon is what brought us all to this game we can agree on that I think. However SOE has provided IG situations, professions, and certain truths that either have to be ignored or change cannon. The latter of which can't be possible. So in order to adhere to cannon one must ignore all game mechanics that would change this. That would include Jedi, the GCW, and Cloning just to target the big ones.

Now it's left for each individual to decide how to interpret these aspects of the game into their gaming and RP styles. And every single person probably absorbs or filters a certain amount of this information to fit their preferred gaming style. Unlike the small pieces like PvP and RP trying to assimilate cannon into a pill we can all swallow is just far too overwhelming. Now that's not to say we can't agree on certain aspects of that, but I think it would be much better handled in a format like that. Establish certain "truths" everyone can assimilate into their gaming style to build a foundation for all of our RP to be based on, instead of trying to drill down from Cannon. All I'm saying is that I think we'd make more progress if we were to focus on how to interpret the GCW from SWG with the actual GCW from Cannon, or how should we think of cloning? Did someone find our body half eaten and just drop us in a Bacta (SP?) tank that saved our lives? Or are we just going to throw the idea out and decide cloning was possible obviously so who cares lets just accept it? Or how do we address Jedi? All of which are topics of concern in this community. Once we have a foundation with certain truths we all can accept while the pages we're reading from may not be the same translation at least they're more like the same story.

Personally my character was founded with all the Cannon aspects of this time period between ANH and ESB, however I can't continue on the path being a Jedi. Now it was possible that Jedi were still around depending on how you interpret certain events. RotS leaves such a possibility open, while in ESB Yoda sort of squashes that idea. I personally choose to believe some Jedi did escape order 66 and could have passed the torch in some instances just keeping a low profile like Yoda and Ben did and may have died out before ESB. Although some of their knowledge could have been passed along. But I can't expect everyone to accept that, nor do I. I simply choose to believe we were given the starting point for our own adventure and now we're left to move that story in our direction.

[Ekade]

My truth...


Cloning:

Cloning is not a common thing. If you "die" and "clone", you are really just severely injured and/or left for dead. Medical technology is such that you can be revived even if you are in really bad shape.

It is good RP to act out the effects of a serious injury that results from game death.


Jedi:

Jedi is a culture. Jedi is not a set of abilities. Just because you have a lightsaber and use the force does not mean you are a Jedi. Jedi follow a strict code.

If your character does not follow these traditions, you are not a Jedi. I am not a samurai by virtue of picking up a samurai sword, you are not a jedi just because you happen to have a lightsaber.

There is a distinction between "having force powers" and "being a Jedi". Your RP will dictate what you are perceived as.

Should "jedi" and "force users" try to hide their identity? Yes. Movie canon and game-canon suggest this. Brandishing your lightsaber in front of a crowded starport is the same thing as slapping an Imperial PC and refusing to RP the repercussions. This is bad RP.

[Hashum]

My truth...

Jedi:

Jedi is a culture. Jedi is not a set of abilities. Just because you have a lightsaber and use the force does not mean you are a Jedi. Jedi follow a strict code.

If your character does not follow these traditions, you are not a Jedi. I am not a samurai by virtue of picking up a samurai sword, you are not a jedi just because you happen to have a lightsaber.

There is a distinction between "having force powers" and "being a Jedi". Your RP will dictate what you are perceived as.

Should "jedi" and "force users" try to hide their identity? Yes. Movie canon and game-canon suggest this. Brandishing your lightsaber in front of a crowded starport is the same thing as slapping an Imperial PC and refusing to RP the repercussions. This is bad RP.

What traditions need to be followed though? Yes the Jedi did have a code but that didn't dictate how a Jedi behaved all the time. In KOTOR you learn there were at least to Jedi that fell in love while on a mission, and then you have the obvious Revan/Ballista relationship develop although not confirmed. And then Luke gets married to Mara Jade, and Anakin to Padame. So what parts of the traditions have to be followed?

And others will argue that the Cannon dictates that a Jedi would exsist so how would they have known of this code to begin with? I'm just saying while I happen to agree with what you've said there is still a lot of room to debate not only how it pertains to cannon but to SWG or even the EU. And this is just one of the topics. So you can see how trying to address cannon and SWG RP environments is a daunting task at that level.

So if this is something that this community wants to start addressing so we're all "on the same page" then I think it needs to be broken down. And it's possible that the team Zannon was creating will be addressing these issues in a much more condusive enviornment giving many of the leaders of the community a chance to give things the once over making it easier to present to a large community objectively. And to save us all running in circles.

[Ekade]

The problem is that any time someone proposes an idea, they are pounced on by "Devils Advocates" who are quick to point out any one of a million other possibilities or exceptions while not proposing any ideas or solutions of their own.

What traditions need to be followed though? So what parts of the traditions have to be followed?

How would you answer those questions?

I'm just saying while I happen to agree with what you've said there is still a lot of room to debate not only how it pertains to cannon but to SWG or even the EU. And this is just one of the topics. So you can see how trying to address cannon and SWG RP environments is a daunting task at that level.

I'm not interested in debating every possibility.

I'd rather just stick to simple and general common sense guidelines.

So if this is something that this community wants to start addressing so we're all "on the same page" then I think it needs to be broken down.

Some members of the community want it. Some dont. Those that don't will just ignore it and do their own thing anyways.

[sharn]

cannon is part of my roleplay as sharn personally. with a few twists and turns to make my character beleivable

lets put it this way.

jedi : even palpatine cannot sense force users from across the galaxy he isnt a know all see all god of the darkside (marka ragnos however is a distinct possibility lol)

thus i would say yoda's line "when gone i am the last jedi you will be" was him spouting retorics to get luke to keep being a jedi *shrug*

throughout the expanded universe jedi come from hiding. and even Rahn hid long enough to ensure that Morgan Katarn got that lightsaber that would hold Kyle Katarn's destiny. he wasnt a jedi because he picked up a lightsaber. he became a jedi when he threw aside his own dislike of being a force user to do the right thing in stopping dessan and tavion in jedi outcast (even if he was out for revenge at first)

the jedi code is a guildline. not a set of "follow our rules or we'll f'ing spank you" rules. though marriage is not allowed by the old jedi code. it did happen. personally i think the jedi that fell in love and had something to fight for where the best. (revan/bastilla revan/carth exile/handmaiden exile/visas exile/disciple exile/atton luke/mara kyle/jan) though sometimes love can lead to fear of losing the one you love and that can send one over the edge (anakin/padme')

heck even luke fell to the darkside. where it not for kyle and mara. he woulda never got his head slapped lol..

okay rant done. peace out yo!

[xyryn]

In response to the original request of this thread:

I liked the movies, I have not read any of the books. From what I've heard, a lot of the books made some very silly assumptions/statements.

I did not come into this game to play Starwars and be a hero. I was talked into coming into the game. I have a varied RP background. I've been a dungeon master and a god, developing story lines in other rule laden games. In every one of those paper and pencil games, I had to deal with rules which were silly because they were developed to enhance game balance for the fighters.

In other RP, there were only two rules: 1. Did it happen historically? 2. You can't be someone who was real or legendary. As the roleplay developed, we ended up reinventing historical armor, historical sword play, resurrection battles, tournament rules that came close to historical, heraldry that came close to historical. We also developed wars that are a lot of fun and have thousands of participants.

Therefore my roleplay goes like this: I am an ordinary person with no extra-ordinary talents. I react to my surroundings. If I am attacked by a critter, I fight back. I avoid getting shot at. I treat Imperial and Rebel authority with respect. I work for a living. I dress appropriately for a situation...I don't travel in a metal bra and skimpy skirt, I don't dance onstage in layers and layers of cloth, I don't ride a bantha in shorts (anyone who has ridden horses knows that you itch like crazy where bare skin rubs against a saddle). If there is a sandstorm blowing, I do not run around in shorts or a mini-skirt...I cover up.

I live with a being not of my species because we are heart-bound. I don't cheat on him because neither my heart nor my ingame cultural background allows me to. My ingame cultural background was developed out of what I read about Twi'leks in the various forums and the fact that Ryloth did not exist ingame...I couldn't travel there.

I have a well developed backstory out of habit from my other RP experience. Only Iago, Shoroliakan and Li'ith currently know this backstory because it isn't pertinent to any one else's backstory or current roleplay. I will be posting it, eventually, in the appropriate forum. I don't give a hang if it's cannon...which it isn't. I invented it, and someone else might want to pick up on it to explain his/her attitudes. Then it would become their backstory, and they can bend it their way.

I'm quite willing to incorporate agreed upon "rules of etiquette" or other commonly held conventions into my roleplay as long as they aren't silly.

By "silly" I refer back to D&D where one of my characters, an expert-high level bowman, couldn't hit a large target 10 feet away because the rules/DM didn't allow it. By silly, I mean boobs on a reptiloid, or a PvPer who insists that artisans, entertainers and healers are supposed to help them for free. By silly, I mean the assumption that all Jedi were so unaware of their surroundings that all but two of them were killed by Order 66, and that all stormtroopers followed that order.

/rantoff