SPLIT: Useless Profs, Another POST CU Debate.

[Ekade]

<Invites the Master Artisan to come sit next her her>

Hello, I am a Master Dancer. I've been saving this seat for you. Welcome to the useless profession section.

[Hashum]

<Invites the Master Artisan to come sit next her her>

Hello, I am a Master Dancer. I've been saving this seat for you. Welcome to the useless profession section.

Yes but when you think about it aren't almost all novice professions useless? (now granted dancer is an "elite" I believe but entertainer is a novice). I mean who really uses camps anymore? And what about Traps, does anyone use traps? Sure the idea is cool but really lets be honest.

Even Marksman and Brawler become pretty useless as soon as you start on your elite professions. And just like the BARC I'm sure this ship will cost 4 or 5 million credits to buy if you don't pre-order so there will be plenty of people still needing those swoops.

[Ekade]

<Invites the Master Artisan to come sit next her her>

Hello, I am a Master Dancer. I've been saving this seat for you. Welcome to the useless profession section.

Yes but when you think about it aren't almost all novice professions useless? (now granted dancer is an "elite" I believe but entertainer is a novice). I mean who really uses camps anymore? And what about Traps, does anyone use traps? Sure the idea is cool but really lets be honest.

Even Marksman and Brawler become pretty useless as soon as you start on your elite professions. And just like the BARC I'm sure this ship will cost 4 or 5 million credits to buy if you don't pre-order so there will be plenty of people still needing those swoops.

Yeah, I was hoping they would give Master dancers/musicians a very useful short term buff that would encourage people to use camps and want to have one of these along on their hunting trips.

Your comparing Master Dancer to a novice profession is not helping you know.

[xyryn]

Camps are less than safe. Sitting in one without some kind of defense is asking to die. Most dancers can't have those defenses.

[Hashum]

<Invites the Master Artisan to come sit next her her>

Hello, I am a Master Dancer. I've been saving this seat for you. Welcome to the useless profession section.

Yes but when you think about it aren't almost all novice professions useless? (now granted dancer is an "elite" I believe but entertainer is a novice). I mean who really uses camps anymore? And what about Traps, does anyone use traps? Sure the idea is cool but really lets be honest.

Even Marksman and Brawler become pretty useless as soon as you start on your elite professions. And just like the BARC I'm sure this ship will cost 4 or 5 million credits to buy if you don't pre-order so there will be plenty of people still needing those swoops.

Yeah, I was hoping they would give Master dancers/musicians a very useful short term buff that would encourage people to use camps and want to have one of these along on their hunting trips.

Your comparing Master Dancer to a novice profession is not helping you know.

Yes but the same could be said for Squad Leader as well. It's a shame. And really Commando too.

[Sai'nu]

Well, look at that R2 report they issued not long ago. The one that stated which professions were being played the most. I think it interesting that they don't take into account 'why' the list looked like it did. The more effective professions for the game were towards the top and the others toward the bottom of the list. (In this case they listed the least played professions at the top and it read down to the most played) Dancer was somewhere in between with Artisan. They are needed professions; but not as useful as they could be or the list would probably not be so well defined. Squad Leader was right at the bottom of the list!

I guess my point would be... It'd be nice if with one of these expansions they would actually concentrate on profession balance. Instead, we get an 8 man Skiff for pre-order. I'll likely pre-order this for one of my two accounts and say to heck with it with the second... for now.

Now, as far as our second argument here (split thread again, perhaps?); I think CU's mistake 'was' the Combat Level system. It's divided us in many many ways that have not made the game better. However, those willing to adapt and, for lack of a better way of putting it, give up the professions they like for functionality can find enjoyment in the game. Sadly, again, this means going CL 80 for the most part. Now, if they'd take out CL so we're all essentially the same.... I think that'd be a large step in creating balance again.

Ok, that said, who is comming with me to check out the Sarlaac on my skiff?

[Ekade]

Ok, that said, who is comming with me to check out the Sarlaac on my skiff?

You can tell that slimy piece of worm-ridden filth he'll get no such pleasure from us!

[Hashum]

Now, as far as our second argument here (split thread again, perhaps?); I think CU's mistake 'was' the Combat Level system. It's divided us in many many ways that have not made the game better. However, those willing to adapt and, for lack of a better way of putting it, give up the professions they like for functionality can find enjoyment in the game. Sadly, again, this means going CL 80 for the most part. Now, if they'd take out CL so we're all essentially the same.... I think that'd be a large step in creating balance again.

Ok, that said, who is comming with me to check out the Sarlaac on my skiff?

Ok, I agree with you on the professions needing balance to some extent. Although I think it's more of a profession fix that is needed and not so much a balance.

However when it comes to the CU I have to completely disagree. The CL thing is fine, in fact I like it. And frankly you don't have to be CL 80 dang it. I haven't been CL 80 for what feels like forever (it's probably really been only a month or two).

Now does being CL 80 make life easier? Yes of course it does, if you like to solo anyway. However if you're in this game because it's a Massive Multi-player game and enjoy playing with other people it's completely unnecessary.

Frankly it's more fun and more immersive to not be CL 80 sometimes. Frankly the last few months of being CL 60-70ish has been a blast. The last few weeks Safia has been helping me with some of the quests on Kash since I don't know what to do, and having to CL 70ish people tracking through Kash trying to take out 10-15 75ish type creatures has been great. So it's not like you even need a large group to be successful.

The only imbalance the CL creates is if you're alone. If you're in a group of even 2-3 people of similar CL you can really start having some fun. And that's the most imporant thing. The real problem is that we all want to be great, we all want to be the best.

It's a natural desire just like it is in the real world. The thing is we need to stop thinking because something is hard to do that we suck, and just suck it up and realize that the gratification from doing something that is hard, is much better then doing lots of things easily because we're uber. It's when we start to feel that way that I find people start getting the feeling of burn out.

Anyway that's my little rant sorry.

[Sai'nu]

Well, I may have skewed my intended meaning as well. I was trying to capture a bit of what Ekade has mentioned in the past. That she feels useless in groups because by the time she gets to 'tap' a creature; it's already dead because of the ranged professions. This is 'usually' because I think she's grouped with CL 80s. It 'does' make in game life easier.

Now, for me, the xp thing they were trying to fix... 'that's' where I thought CU succeeded for a change (even though we found it it wasn't intended later). That you get the same xp regardless of soloing or doing it in a group; Thus giving you more motivation to group (some exceptions applying to your CL and the CL of the hunt of course).

I guess the nixing of CL to me would mean... Ekade would stand a chance at being on par with the rest of the players regardless of profession; As it was Pre-CU. Again, this gives us that spiral of buff botting and the like again though.

I don't really have a good answer to it; But that's more of where I was comming from. The system still seems a bit 'off' in trying to give us balance; as if they didn't consider some things before pushing it live.

[Hashum]

Well, I may have skewed my intended meaning as well. I was trying to capture a bit of what Ekade has mentioned in the past. That she feels useless in groups because by the time she gets to 'tap' a creature; it's already dead because of the ranged professions. This is 'usually' because I think she's grouped with CL 80s. It 'does' make in game life easier.

Now, for me, the xp thing they were trying to fix... 'that's' where I thought CU succeeded for a change (even though we found it it wasn't intended later). That you get the same xp regardless of soloing or doing it in a group; Thus giving you more motivation to group (some exceptions applying to your CL and the CL of the hunt of course).

I guess the nixing of CL to me would mean... Ekade would stand a chance at being on par with the rest of the players regardless of profession; As it was Pre-CU. Again, this gives us that spiral of buff botting and the like again though.

I don't really have a good answer to it; But that's more of where I was comming from. The system still seems a bit 'off' in trying to give us balance; as if they didn't consider some things before pushing it live.

I can understand where you're coming from there however it's important to note that the problem in Ekade's situation is not the CL level, or even the profession balance. The problem in this scenario is the group itself.

Now by that I mean as a CL 77 at the moment in a ranged group of CL 80's that are ranged I encounter the same problem. The thing is finding a place to fit. As a Melee template she should look for a Melee Group, or even a spin group. I think this would immediately help her sense of feeling needed.

If she were a group like this I think she would find she would hardly even notice her CL unless she's looking through the combat log and adding up how much dmg everyone did and seeing that her contribution probably was less then that of some of the other higher CL members of the group. However it's not about who does more dmg it's about helping. And whatever amount of dmg she does helps the group bring down the target faster and is helping them.

[Shensen]

Agree with Hashum. In my experience if you are in a spin group you're golden. If you end up in a primarily ranged group which has also happened to me from time to time, the secret there is to do a little scouting at the first lair. It usually only takes a couple mobs to determine who is drawing the aggro. Most of the time it will be the same person so I will usually just stand a ways in front of them so when the mob aggros on them I'm already in range.

It takes a little experimentation as well as communicating with the group as to what the best strategy is in order for everyone to be optimally effective.

[Ekade]

Pre-CU, I used to get asked to mindbuff BIG hunting groups, and would get invited to come along in exchange for my services.

This told me that there was value in the Dancer profession.

I don't think I have been asked for a buff since the CU came out.

I was trying to capture a bit of what Ekade has mentioned in the past. That she feels useless in groups because by the time she gets to 'tap' a creature; it's already dead because of the ranged professions. This is 'usually' because I think she's grouped with CL 80s. It 'does' make in game life easier.

Yeah.. None of my 250 skill points are of any value in that scenario. Of course, the problem there is the scenario. I could be a CL80 and still not get to tap the creature.

I think the problem is finding an actual challenge where all classes need to play their respective roles in order to succeed. When you can get away with just plinking everything in sight without having to worry about concepts like "tanking", "aggro management", "crowd control", and "healing".. you are playing tic-tac-toe. This is a player issue. grinding easy stuff just is not fun.

It becomes a game issue if it is excessively difficult to find appropriate challenges.

However it's not about who does more dmg it's about helping. And whatever amount of dmg she does helps the group bring down the target faster and is helping them.

This is true. However, when my profession is described as "Primary Melee damage dealer", and I do little or no dmg, I am not helping, I am spectating. And that is the problem. But again, I think it is more a problem of fighting in groups that are way overpowered compared to the mobs we are fighting.

I don't know where to find good challenges in SWG. Stuff is either too easy or too hard. Does anyone else feel the same or are there actually places to find challenging and rewarding PvE?

In other words, where can a group of about 5 players, CL80 - CL56, find a PvE challenge where they actually have to think and work as a team to win?

[Hashum]

Pre-CU, I used to get asked to mindbuff BIG hunting groups, and would get invited to come along in exchange for my services.

This told me that there was value in the Dancer profession.

I don't think I have been asked for a buff since the CU came out.

I was trying to capture a bit of what Ekade has mentioned in the past. That she feels useless in groups because by the time she gets to 'tap' a creature; it's already dead because of the ranged professions. This is 'usually' because I think she's grouped with CL 80s. It 'does' make in game life easier.

Yeah.. None of my 250 skill points are of any value in that scenario. Of course, the problem there is the scenario. I could be a CL80 and still not get to tap the creature.

I think the problem is finding an actual challenge where all classes need to play their respective roles in order to succeed. When you can get away with just plinking everything in sight without having to worry about concepts like "tanking", "aggro management", "crowd control", and "healing".. you are playing tic-tac-toe. This is a player issue. grinding easy stuff just is not fun.

It becomes a game issue if it is excessively difficult to find appropriate challenges.

However it's not about who does more dmg it's about helping. And whatever amount of dmg she does helps the group bring down the target faster and is helping them.

This is true. However, when my profession is described as "Primary Melee damage dealer", and I do little or no dmg, I am not helping, I am spectating. And that is the problem. But again, I think it is more a problem of fighting in groups that are way overpowered compared to the mobs we are fighting.

I don't know where to find good challenges in SWG. Stuff is either too easy or too hard. Does anyone else feel the same or are there actually places to find challenging and rewarding PvE?

In other words, where can a group of about 5 players, CL80 - CL56, find a PvE challenge where they actually have to think and work as a team to win?

Hey I'm always looking for a buff, more now then I did pre-cu that's for sure. I never cared for mind buffs pre-cu because I could just take some spice and I was fine to solo all day long. But I HATE hunting without that buff now.

5 players of those ranges, go to Krayt oasis, or try some of the harder missions on Kashyyk. Make an RP event of the Ryatt Trail so that you have an RP reason to travel down there, and trying to survive as you go. Also makes the fighting more RP then OOC which doubles the fun.

Also lets not forget space. I think this is over looked. I love space, and space PvP is a more balanced playing field for some professions. Still gives them the fighting rush while allowing their skills at the PC to dictate the outcome not their skills in the game.

What is your template Ekade? Are you a Master Swordsman? Are you using good gear? All these can be factors but you have to stop looking to the "Role" you're suppose to play and find a "Role" that you can play.

At the moment I'm a much better dmg dealer then I am a tank, but because of that I often draw the agro and have to also be the tank. At first this was very difficult for me, I've NEVER been a tank in SWG. But I had to adjust, I had to change the role I wanted to play to the role that I would play and now I've come to enjoy it. I just had to make a few minor adjustments and I'm now completely happy with either role.

Just don't expect to fill the same role every time your in a group. I like being a dmg dealer, but often times I'll run into someone that does more dmg then me, but instead of feeling useless I just remember that even though I'm not the dmg dealer I'm still A dmg dealer and that my contribution is necessary. And then I just let myself enjoy not having to fill any role.

And in those cases yeah it gets a little boring but I just have to see it more as getting a break, I no longer have any pressure in the group. And often times I'll just set up an attack let it run as an auto attack and send a few /tells to a few friends because I know the group dynamic will change shortly and then I'll have to adjust again.

Now if you hunt with the same 5 people frequently then you may have a given role each time, and if you don't like the role you fill then maybe it's just a matter of going with groups of 2 or 3 or trying to go with a few new people, and maybe give your character an chance for some new RP.

Anyway just my take.

[xyryn]

I was a cl 60 with a master dancer and a blade. Sure I could do damage in any group that had a modicum of balance. In a melee group, of any cl and 2-8 combatants, we had to communicate - had to work together. We had to think. We had to look out for each other. It was fun.

In a ranged group of more than 3, however, it was not fun. The ranged players just start shooting and shoot as fast as possible. They seem more concerned with how fast they can kill a lair than with making sure everyone gets a hit or with having fun. It seems to be every man for himself and let the rezzer do her thing. No thinking, no planning, and worst of all...no communication except about who is getting in the bus.

I don't know if it is the people who are drawn to the blades and the guns, or if it is that the choice of weapon determines the style of play. But the majority of the people that we play with are ranged.

I respec'd to cl 80 for reasons other than the above and found that I can now have fun in a ranged group. Since I don't need experience points, I can play for fun. My fun is trying to keep the person who gets the aggro alive. I keep an eye on everyone's health bars and try to help those who are dropping fast. I also can determine which victim is next and do what Shensen does.

I still prefer the give and take of the melee groups, but for the most part they are not us. So, I get to meet new people. Awwww.

[Isleh]

Agree with Hashum. In my experience if you are in a spin group you're golden. If you end up in a primarily ranged group which has also happened to me from time to time, the secret there is to do a little scouting at the first lair. It usually only takes a couple mobs to determine who is drawing the aggro. Most of the time it will be the same person so I will usually just stand a ways in front of them so when the mob aggros on them I'm already in range.

It takes a little experimentation as well as communicating with the group as to what the best strategy is in order for everyone to be optimally effective.

It's really a matter of the ranged players working with the melee players.

The last spin group I was in was with Yala. I found what works the best is standing hext to the player spinning and use area attacks and the long range to drag any stragglers back in range of the spinner.

What I've also started doing is watching the healer. If I see them get agro, I use critical shot to try to pull off the agro and back into the whirling blades and sabers :P

Also, when I'm pulling, I'll hold off using a knockdown until they are next to the melee players and then drop it at their feet.