SPLIT: RPvP Discussion

[Hashum]

I think the problem with RP/PvP in the GCW is that when it takes place it just has to be planned in advance. People have to know or expect what is coming to a certain extent.

That's sort of sad but I think that's the only way it works. I'd love to see some of the scenario's Dwilah listed, I think they're all excellent. As long as the end result is not planned and is dictated on the out come of the individual scenario's. As no one wants to be the loser especially when they know they have to be the loser.

Instead it would be sort of like the quests SOE ran a year or two ago when the outcome was based on the number of people from each faction that ran the quest.

Now certain instances could be preplanned to favor one side or the other to give them better odd's based on the situation but the end result could still be influenced by the actions of anyone in the group.

Plus this allows players I think to have a better sense of accomplishment. Or actually feel like the hero. If there character helps a 4 man rebel recon team escape an Imperial Task force of 8 ST's or something, can kind of make you feel like rambo when you get your guys out.

Anyway I've been detached from the GCW for awhile now so maybe I'm off base I don't know.

[Ekade]

Well, the event GM would decide what the players know in advance, if anything. All the players really need to know is what time to be ready to play if they want to participate in an event.

That's sort of sad but I think that's the only way it works. I'd love to see some of the scenario's Dwilah listed, I think they're all excellent. As long as the end result is not planned and is dictated on the out come of the individual scenario's. As no one wants to be the loser especially when they know they have to be the loser.

Exactly. These would be "games" whose outcome is not pre-determined.

Now certain instances could be preplanned to favor one side or the other to give them better odd's based on the situation but the end result could still be influenced by the actions of anyone in the group.

Yeah, some scenarios may call for one side to have more people than the other. It's really up to each GM to create interesting and balanced games.

[Dariis]

I think to make PvP work well in RP instances requires very few rules. pvp in most cases is incap or be incapped (and possibly dead!), but rp+pvp should be the battles see in the movies. I feel rp battles can include dialogue, action, and realism if a few basic principles are followed

1) the goal is not to incap first, but keep the pace slow and steady.
2) after you have been incapped, your out of action until a medic helps you. (maybe when you get back up, go prone to show your still down?)
3) dont heal too often. (not to be unfair, but do you really have time to fight and apply medicine during a heated battle, especially if your a melee character in combat?)

this way strong combat toons have their advantage, leaders have time to bark orders and/or direct combat, healers are the support toons and the only aid if you fall in combat, and with medium paced combat there is time to think about what to do/say without the pressure of being "pwnd" immeadiatly.

[Hashum]

I think to make PvP work well in RP instances requires very few rules. pvp in most cases is incap or be incapped (and possibly dead!), but rp+pvp should be the battles see in the movies. I feel rp battles can include dialogue, action, and realism if a few basic principles are followed

1) the goal is not to incap first, but keep the pace slow and steady.
2) after you have been incapped, your out of action until a medic helps you. (maybe when you get back up, go prone to show your still down?)
3) dont heal too often. (not to be unfair, but do you really have time to fight and apply medicine during a heated battle, especially if your a melee character in combat?)

this way strong combat toons have their advantage, leaders have time to bark orders and/or direct combat, healers are the support toons and the only aid if you fall in combat, and with medium paced combat there is time to think about what to do/say without the pressure of being "pwnd" immeadiatly.

While good suggestions I'm just not sure how practicle they are. Items 1 & 2 I don't see a problem with but I also don't have a problem with DB fights either, I think that would just need to be established before hand.

However I think 3 is the big problem. I mean when you're playing a game that pretty much centers it's advancement through combat and healing is often a very frequent occurance in PvE as well, I'm sorry but I'd have a bugger of a time remembering that because I'm in RP PvP that I shouldn't heal as often.

When I see my Health Bar get to healing range I don't even realize that I press the heal button sometimes. It's just a force of habit. Plus healing also helps draw out the battle making a bit longer and more fun.

I think the hardest thing is getting people to simply accept PvP while RP'ing, and that's the real challenge we face.

[Ekade]

I think to make PvP work well in RP instances requires very few rules. pvp in most cases is incap or be incapped (and possibly dead!), but rp+pvp should be the battles see in the movies. I feel rp battles can include dialogue, action, and realism if a few basic principles are followed

1) the goal is not to incap first, but keep the pace slow and steady.
2) after you have been incapped, your out of action until a medic helps you. (maybe when you get back up, go prone to show your still down?)
3) dont heal too often. (not to be unfair, but do you really have time to fight and apply medicine during a heated battle, especially if your a melee character in combat?)

this way strong combat toons have their advantage, leaders have time to bark orders and/or direct combat, healers are the support toons and the only aid if you fall in combat, and with medium paced combat there is time to think about what to do/say without the pressure of being "pwnd" immeadiatly.

Yeah.. trying to apply "reality" to any PvP encounter will always be problematic. The rules have to be very very simple and we have to rely on the game mechanics to handle the rest.

This also needs to be fun. People have meticulously built and equipped their characters to where they want them to be. They enjoy using all their capabilities. People will not want to see rules that limit their template more than someone else's.


Basically what needs to be specified are the rules as to how the encounter will start and end, and how each players participation may "end" (i.e. you can't clone, stay dead). The likelihood of any artificial "rule" being followed in the heat of battle is very small.

The only rules above and beyond that would be those limiting something that is blatantly broken or "cheeze". If there is some "I-win" ability/object or whatever that makes competition futile, then it has to go.

[Hashum]

I think to make PvP work well in RP instances requires very few rules. pvp in most cases is incap or be incapped (and possibly dead!), but rp+pvp should be the battles see in the movies. I feel rp battles can include dialogue, action, and realism if a few basic principles are followed

1) the goal is not to incap first, but keep the pace slow and steady.
2) after you have been incapped, your out of action until a medic helps you. (maybe when you get back up, go prone to show your still down?)
3) dont heal too often. (not to be unfair, but do you really have time to fight and apply medicine during a heated battle, especially if your a melee character in combat?)

this way strong combat toons have their advantage, leaders have time to bark orders and/or direct combat, healers are the support toons and the only aid if you fall in combat, and with medium paced combat there is time to think about what to do/say without the pressure of being "pwnd" immeadiatly.

Yeah.. trying to apply "reality" to any PvP encounter will always be problematic. The rules have to be very very simple and we have to rely on the game mechanics to handle the rest.

This also needs to be fun. People have meticulously built and equipped their characters to where they want them to be. They enjoy using all their capabilities. People will not want to see rules that limit their template more than someone else's.


Basically what needs to be specified are the rules as to how the encounter will start and end, and how each players participation may "end" (i.e. you can't clone, stay dead). The likelihood of any artificial "rule" being followed in the heat of battle is very small.

The only rules above and beyond that would be those limiting something that is blatantly broken or "cheeze". If there is some "I-win" ability/object or whatever that makes competition futile, then it has to go.

Well I think this thread has been derailed, much of which is my own fault. But to this point I just remembered that there is a well put together post by Toront I believe that many from this community worked on. I'm not sure where it is at the moment but maybe it's best to resurrect that.

But back to the point of this thread which I believe is really where and when is it a good time to have this kind of conflict.

And going by what events we have here as I rarely am able to attend due to the fact I'm not usually on Fri-Sun I miss them, so I can't really say how well people receive these sorts of PvP or Imperial intervention at these events.

I don't want to limit anyone's RP by saying do or don't, but I guess I'd feel like as an Imperial I probably wouldn't send a ST part to Ruby Lake without having arranged something before hand to at least set the stage. Why because it seems to me this is often a hive for rebellious citizens.

Sure that may give you more reason to go, however I think based on the player base that will be there it's not going to be received well nor will it go well. As Nyvveck and Kirt explained.

Similarly I think it would only be respectful that Rebel's do the same when planning something at the Roba. I have to say though every time I've been to the Roba any conflicts seem to have worked out quite well, with little or no problems. I'm not sure if they were all arranged or not, I honestly don't think so, but something about the place and maybe it's TTF is conducive of a good environment for these types of conflicts.

S&V I would have to say again GCW stuff doesn't play out well here unless there's some kind of heads up given so people know what you're doing. No one "run's" this event so setting it up could be difficult. Besides the purpose or theme of this event and it's location are not really condusive of a large scale type of scenario. However something between a few individual's that was prearranged and when other's not invovled can then be ignored would probably work best.

Club Midnight on the other hand can be very good for this. It's high class, no one wants to get busted by the Empire and so I think Zannon has and will with proper notification see these types of things handled well. I sort of see this like Cloud City and Lando. Plus having a focal point to be able to get things set up helps.

Basically I just think the most important thing is (as sad as it is) that if you want GCW RP with PvP you're going to have to contact the parties involved so their aware of what's going to go down before hand. Even if the end has not been set, they know something is going to happen.

While that does kill some of the fun and exciment of making it feel unexpected I think the headaches it saves in the end would out weight what you're losing in spontenaity.

[Ekade]

I think the hardest thing is getting people to simply accept PvP while RP'ing, and that's the real challenge we face.

My perspective on what we have been discussing in this thread are rules around RPvP events. Simple "battles" or games with specific objectives.

This is not an attempt to set a standard for all RP and PvP encounters that may happen "At-random". We all know how well that works.


However....

It's not to say we should not set up ad-hoc rules for encounters that occur during our random RP interactions. That would solve a ton of problems if the rules are agreed to up front. Otherwise you have never ending chaos with no resolution.

For example, Kirt almost got himself pwned last night in the Temple while looking for a mark. We could have said, "ok... it looks like this is going to get ugly, all duel-up. Winner is the team who has someone standing inside the temple and they win control of the mark. 1st incap, you are completely unconcious and under the control of the winners; you are disarmed and bound, basically unable to make a claim on the mark or harm the winners once the encounter has concluded."

[Ekade]

We are talking about 2 different things Hashum. "At random" RPvP encounters and "Planned" RPvP events.

Maybe the thread should be split accordingly so we don't have confusion.

[Hashum]

I think the hardest thing is getting people to simply accept PvP while RP'ing, and that's the real challenge we face.

My perspective on what we have been discussing in this thread are rules around RPvP events. Simple "battles" or games with specific objectives.

This is not an attempt to set a standard for all RP and PvP encounters that may happen "At-random". We all know how well that works.

You're correct this is why I referred to the PvP Guide lines Toront and I believe a team of Rep's from the site was working on in my next post. Which is as close a standard for RP PvP encounters that we have.

[/quote]
However....

It's not to say we should not set up ad-hoc rules for encounters that occur during our random RP interactions. That would solve a ton of problems if the rules are agreed to up front. Otherwise you have never ending chaos with no resolution.

For example, Kirt almost got himself pwned last night in the Temple while looking for a mark. We could have said, "ok... it looks like this is going to get ugly, all duel-up. Winner is the team who has someone standing inside the temple and they win control of the mark. 1st incap, you are completely unconcious and under the control of the winners; you are disarmed and bound, basically unable to make a claim on the mark or harm the winners once the encounter has concluded."[/quote]

What I meant by my post was simply that a random RP encounter that my cause friction usually does and not the kind of RP friction or PvP friction that most are looking for but instead a griefer /spit /slap macro reaction.

And that it's getting beyond that point to where people can be adults that is the problem.

I don't know how your scenario at the ceramony played out last night, but I think had you played it out like you mentioned above I would think that it would have been totally acceptable. Other then the fact for RP purposes none of those in the temple would have been prepared for a battle. But I think that would have been over looked to enjoy that kind of scenario. And I think that is exactly what the GCW RPvP'ers are looking for.

RP players that accept a bad situation, work with it, play it out, and whatever happens happens. I mean I think you summed up what it is we're trying to get to. It's just a matter of how can we make it work that way all the time, or a majority of the time.

[Ekade]

Other then the fact for RP purposes none of those in the temple would have been prepared for a battle. But I think that would have been over looked to enjoy that kind of scenario. And I think that is exactly what the GCW RPvP'ers are looking for.

Well.. I hestate to put forth too many "reality" rules as they are open to wild interpretation (and thusly BS).

Bounty Hunters will claim that they are always armed to the teeth and ready for combat, carrying an arsenal of instantly accessible weaponry and defensive gear at all times. It's their job, they are the predators of the galaxy and the rest of us are sheep.. blah blah.

To which a Smuggler will counter with the fact they have survived on their wits since they were in the womb, hidden gadgets and weapons are their forte. They can smell danger 1000m away and will be ready for it... blah blah..

Imperial military personnel are trained for... blah blah..

The every watchul rebels are.. blah blah..

Jedi can sense danger.. blah blah..


So basically the ONLY people in the galaxy that are not perpetually 100%combat ready are entertainers and priestesses.

[Hashum]

Other then the fact for RP purposes none of those in the temple would have been prepared for a battle. But I think that would have been over looked to enjoy that kind of scenario. And I think that is exactly what the GCW RPvP'ers are looking for.

Well.. I hestate to put forth too many "reality" rules as they are open to wild interpretation (and thusly BS).

Bounty Hunters will claim that they are always armed to the teeth and ready for combat, carrying an arsenal of instantly accessible weaponry and defensive gear at all times. It's their job, they are the predators of the galaxy and the rest of us are sheep.. blah blah.

To which a Smuggler will counter with the fact they have survived on their wits since they were in the womb, hidden gadgets and weapons are their forte. They can smell danger 1000m away and will be ready for it... blah blah..

Imperial military personnel are trained for... blah blah..

The every watchul rebels are.. blah blah..

Jedi can sense danger.. blah blah..


So basically the ONLY people in the galaxy that are not perpetually 100%combat ready are entertainers and priestesses.

I'm sorry I don't think I meant to imply that. I was simply saying had you gone that route the only thing a BH could say is the garbage you spouted above being reason why you shouldn't be able to do that.

But then said it would be overlooked (as it should be).

At any rate I was trying to give you prop's for seeing how a scenario could develop into an RPvP scenario that I think both parties would have been very happy with. Assuming they enjoy RPvP that is.

Heck I don't know what kind of Temple you're running, you could very well carry daggers or swords for ceramonial rituals. So I was in no way trying to imply that you should have been helpless and weaponless. Sorry for the confussion.

[Ekade]

Heck I don't know what kind of Temple you're running, you could very well carry daggers or swords for ceramonial rituals. So I was in no way trying to imply that you should have been helpless and weaponless. Sorry for the confussion.

I guess my real point was that we are all too creative and capable of RP'ing ourselves into an advantageous position.

It would boil down to an "I am really faster than you because..." argument.

For example: We all know Ekade is faster than Kirt because she 1) a twilek, thus naturally graceful and athletic, 2) she is a dancer and has trained her body to perform with lightning quickness and balance, 3) she has trained in, and mastered multiple melee professions.. all focused on power and quickness.. therefore..

The moment Kirt made a move for his gun his teeth would be hitting the back of his throat around the same time his skull was bouncing off the floor.


Of course Kirt could respond with an equally valid list of reasons why he is quicker than Ekade.

Soooo...

Why not just skip the "I am prepared and you are not", and just have a fair fight? It's doubtful that you can get someone to agree to accepting a disadvantage. Just RP, fight, have fun, and RP some more.

[KirtViza]

Heck I don't know what kind of Temple you're running, you could very well carry daggers or swords for ceramonial rituals. So I was in no way trying to imply that you should have been helpless and weaponless. Sorry for the confussion.

I guess my real point was that we are all too creative and capable of RP'ing ourselves into an advantageous position.

It would boil down to an "I am really faster than you because..." argument.

For example: We all know Ekade is faster than Kirt because she 1) a twilek, thus naturally graceful and athletic, 2) she is a dancer and has trained her body to perform with lightning quickness and balance, 3) she has trained in, and mastered multiple melee professions.. all focused on power and quickness.. therefore..

The moment Kirt made a move for his gun his teeth would be hitting the back of his throat around the same time his skull was bouncing off the floor.


Of course Kirt could respond with an equally valid list of reasons why he is quicker than Ekade.

Soooo...

Why not just skip the "I am prepared and you are not", and just have a fair fight? It's doubtful that you can get someone to agree to accepting a disadvantage. Just RP, fight, have fun, and RP some more.

I hate you, but you are right, Ekade is faster then kirt and I knew it, thats why I turned my Comlink on and contacted Adun and he knew what to do..thats what my men are trained in. But I wasnt scared of ekade hun im sorry...Isleh had me a bit worried tho lol

[Ekade]

But I wasnt scared of ekade

You will be.. you *will* be

I hate you, but you are right, Ekade is faster then kirt and I knew it, thats why I turned my Comlink on and contacted Adun and he knew what to do..thats what my men are trained in. But I wasnt scared of ekade hun im sorry...Isleh had me a bit worried tho lol

If you weren't worried, then why were you asking my about my CL?

Kirt to Ekade: When did you drop dancer? How did you get to CL 80 so fast?

You were much more eager to pick a fight when I was CL56. I'm CL80 and all of a sudden you want to negotiate. *cough* metagamer *cough*

I am just messing, it is all in good fun. I used to pwn you pre-CU as I see no reason why we should not continue the tradition. There is a butt-kicking coming your way with my name on it!

I am going to brand your ass with the following: "pwnd by Ekade", and then make you sign a document which reads: "The greatest butt-kicking of my life was afforded to me by Priestess Ekade", and sign it Kirt Viza, Merc.


Idea shamelessly stolen from Never Say Never Again (Fatima pwns):

Write this: "The greatest rapture of my life was afforded me on a
boat in Nassau by Fatima Blush," and sign it "James Bond, 007."

Zo! I need to attend your school of advanced combat pwnage before my trash talking actually gets me into a fight! I would like to sign up for intermediate 1337speak too. kkthxbai

[Isleh]

Heck I don't know what kind of Temple you're running, you could very well carry daggers or swords for ceramonial rituals. So I was in no way trying to imply that you should have been helpless and weaponless. Sorry for the confussion.

I guess my real point was that we are all too creative and capable of RP'ing ourselves into an advantageous position.

It would boil down to an "I am really faster than you because..." argument.

For example: We all know Ekade is faster than Kirt because she 1) a twilek, thus naturally graceful and athletic, 2) she is a dancer and has trained her body to perform with lightning quickness and balance, 3) she has trained in, and mastered multiple melee professions.. all focused on power and quickness.. therefore..

The moment Kirt made a move for his gun his teeth would be hitting the back of his throat around the same time his skull was bouncing off the floor.


Of course Kirt could respond with an equally valid list of reasons why he is quicker than Ekade.

Soooo...

Why not just skip the "I am prepared and you are not", and just have a fair fight? It's doubtful that you can get someone to agree to accepting a disadvantage. Just RP, fight, have fun, and RP some more.

I hate you, but you are right, Ekade is faster then kirt and I knew it, thats why I turned my Comlink on and contacted Adun and he knew what to do..thats what my men are trained in. But I wasnt scared of ekade hun im sorry...Isleh had me a bit worried tho lol

And I was all ready to hit Adun with the 30 second pause button too...

:P

It was a cool RPing that out. Any outcome would have been good.