The effects of Patch 10 and thoughts about Jedi continuity

[dillion]

I posted this under Jedi profession forum yesterday to see what others would think of it. A friend told me to see you guys had any feedback also. Feel free to comment on it. Thanks -Dil

First off is my Jedi's background.

4004 Saber, 4344 Healer, and 4204 Enhancer

I am by no means what I would consider a fighter or a warrior. I never wanted to be a unstoppable tank, so I chose to heal and protect myself. Before the patch I was a expert runner when Imp's were around. If one trails out in front I could try to pick them off but generally I would not be able to kill them off before the rest of the crowd caught up. I roleplay my Jedi as I believe a Light Side Jedi would act. I will not do the trials because the Force Ranking system doesn't give any freedom to a roleplayer. Dark Jedi may go and hunt overts and Light Jedi. A Light Jedi would not. There should be a alternative of some sort.

After the patch I have become a exquisite runner do to the Force Run offensive nerf. Being that any other profession can get buffs to do unlimited moves and I'm limited by my force bar, I have to run. I don't do a significant difference in damage from a normal character. Yes I can heal each bar individually and all at once, but that still pulls from a limited force bar. Same limitation with my protection from Force Armor.

I agree with a lot of posts about Jedi's feeling that the profession has been cheapened. That a Master Swords/Tera Kasi Master can now easily defeat us in a head on fight. It's true as I had come across one yesterday. He was killing Tefed Rebs at the Secret Base near Kor Vella a hard time, and attempted my luck on taking him on to assist my fellow Rebels. Because of the nerf I had to fight head on to do any damage, I failed miserably and I died for it. The player was very well rounded, even when dealing with switching weapon delays. One on one I could not beat a normal character that later said he was Master Brawler, Master Swords, and Master TK. A combination that can comfortably be completed with minimal grinding in 2 weeks. Just to grind to get where I am has taken me 4 months, not counting the 6 months of grinding holos. In a post about Jedi Knights the Dev's said they could take on 20 BH's fairly well. If some of the BH's have Melee, due to freed up skill points, this simply is not true.

Chief complaints about Jedi have been that they are everywhere as they should not be. And that the populus is tired of being fodder for their Force Rank growth. The second has been taken care of to a fair degree. Jedi are now versus Jedi for Force Ranking. In battles that are now unwinnable without non-Jedi with you attempting to take the Jedi as well. The concept of Jedi vrs Jedi is perfect, but with the Force Run nerf the battles could never be won one on one. You simply cannot do enough damage to another Jedi while running behind them Force Running. Jedi are supposed to be the supreme warriors in Star Wars. When a Jedi knows he cannot win vrs another Jedi he should run to cut his loss if he can. But the Dev's have given the losing Jedi virtually a free ticket out. He can run as long as he needs getting pecked by the Jedi behind him for 15-100 points of damage from a Saber Throw that no longer even has a bleed. So Force Rank has gone from too easy, to near insane to acquire.

But for one such as myself, currently almost helpless because of the nerf, I would have to be in a Jedi hunting group just to succeed in getting Force Ranking. I could never win on my own. Again I don't plan on doing this as I don't believe that a Light Side would hunt in this manner.

I have a suggestion for Force Ranking system. You never saw a Light Side Jedi go looking for a fight. "Adventure... Excitement... A Jedi craves not these things". They fought when needed. My suggestion is that Jedi should be given Quests from NPCs in enclave. Or better yet make a system for giving Force Rank through GCW battlefields. Luke supported the Rebellion through fighting for and defending it many times. He became a Master through those experiences not by group ganking Vader. I think Force Rank could be given through the successful completion of GCW campaigns.

Now we can look at the worst disruption to continuity in the game. Jedi being everywhere out in the open. The loss of Jedi Tef has got to be the worst move to promoting this. Why it was ever thrown out, I will never know. Jedi should be attackable if they are showoff. They need that check from overts and coverts of the opposite faction. I think this should be reinstated.

Player Bounties have kinda gone to the wayside with the lack of a true pay off for the BH's. Lessened XP and payout cripples the want to risk the loss of a Swoop which is what Jedi go for first. BH's really have a hard time taking on a higher level Jedi and as stated by the Dev's this is as it should be. A BH should need a group to take down a Jedi as they state. The BHs got a boon from the freeing of Scouting skill points, and they were able to pick up other classes that truly did make them more effective. A group was still the best way but they did have a chance on their own. But still there is not a want to do the mission as it may cost you more than you will get just to complete is.

With the debut of this Old Man it showes that the game can indeed handle tracking multiple players well and generating NPCs near them. This could be utilized in a very good way to assist the Jedi problem.

Why, if a Jedi's visibility is high, can't the game produce a Lambada class ship of say 4 hard hitting NPC BH's? They drop down and take on this Jedi. Let's say they reinstitute the Tef. The Jedi is waiting for a shuttle out of Coronet and bam. He under attack from the BH's and then the opposite faction in the starport joins in. You've got a battle ensuing as it should when a saber flares. Player Bounties are a wonderful thing, but as they said a Jedi Knight should be able to take out 20 of them. If the players can't limit them, then the game should.

On top of that the game has villains in it. Specific NPC's that are known for Jedi hunting. Why should Lord Nyax always hang around his cult? If there are Jedi to hunt, he should be in line to do it. Hell what about Boba Fett? He's fought on one server that I've heard of. Why not all? Vader as well.

Jedi amass visibility from using powers and saber in the open amongst people or NPC's. As the visibility raises the BH squads difficulty should as well. There should be a point for all Jedi where if they amass too much visibility they are hounded nonstop. If they continue to duck the NPC BH's then and amassing visibility they should have a harder time getting away the next time. That's when I think the Villian NPC's should come in. A invincible Boba Fett or Vader landing and slaughtering the Jedi then and there.

The BH groups would come in based on visibility. If a Jedi padawan goes showing off his powers too much and did not have the skills to defend him/herself, then they should pay the price by a fairly difficult BH squad. If he manages to take down some of the BH's his visibility should go down a portion. Complete them all he should be left with some visibility but not a great deal. If he falls to the BH's or anyone else while engaged by the BH's his visibility should be returned to 0. After all, he just died. Things should go flush. Penalties for Knights should be significant Force Rank loss as they should be prepared to fight at all times since they are overt. For Padawan's I think that the current -30k if he gets Rezzed, or -230k for a clone is acceptable. With the reinstatement of the Tef it would be a significant loss for any Jedi that's not finished his template.

So the fact of the matter is that none of our characters are heroes in the Star Wars universe. We are the common folk. There are a lot of continuity problems with this game and egos from players that feel a certain way. A player that works out a template in 2 weeks should not be able to dominate a profession that is supposed to be the end all be all warrior. Continuity should not allow this. People would say that TKM were the ones that kept Jedi in check in the books though. That they should have a fair chance at beating a Jedi because in the books they did. TKM in the books were as rare as Jedi. Where's the continuity in everyone being one?

I think a good start for getting Jedi back on the path would be reinstating Force Run offensive and the Tef. You will still have Jedi in groups showing up in Coronet and Theed, but with the new Force Rank system overts should not be a giant focus. Eventually putting in a system that interacts to force Jedi to limit their visibility will complete the system bringing about a greater sense of continuity to the game.

I understand that every profession has things they want fixed. That Jedi are getting massive attention from the Dev's. But, aside from lack of content, they are the chief cause of the horrible game morale. I really would like to see everyone happy on this subject. I would like Jedi to be put in their place, and have egos deflated slightly. Jedi should not be immortal or unstoppable. But they also should not be soloable.

This is just my thought on the subject and concerns for the time that I have spent playing. The ideas expressed, I feel, would balance things better. I don't know if they have ever been mentioned before, and I hope I'm not just bringing up someone else's old ideas.

[Ekade]

I like your tone throughout. It was very roleplayer and continuity focused. I think that message needs to be conveyed as often as possible. You did a great job.

While I agree that Jedi should be very powerful from a continuity perspective.. the problem comes in where they simply cant be because there are simply too many of them, from a game balance perspective. At the same time, I appreciate your frustration. Jedi have had to work exceedingly hard to become jedi.

I agree that light Jedi should not have to kill to advance up their ladder ranking system... whatever it is called.

As far as forcing Jedi into hiding, that is another big issue. There is no incentive to do so from a mundane character's perspective. (Nor is there really any incentive to participate in the GCW, but that is another topic.)

It would be interesting to see NPC's spawn on Jedi. I envision an escalation of sorts culminating in Vader showing up to smack the bejeezus out of the offenting jedi. However, I doubt they would ever implement this.

The fact of the matter is, you cannot force people into a style of play. We will always have people walking around with lightsaber in hand in broad daylight. They will argue that they worked so hard to get their Jedi, that they should be allowed to use it however they like.

[Seret Sajet]

I like what you say and I have to say its a breath of fresh air to see a faithful RP Jedi. I personally don't have a gripe one way another because it does not affect my gameplay one way or another.

I do not desire to be a jedi or go through great odds to become one but I don't hate them either. It does, however, bug me when I see a Jedi dueling in Theed or one talking smack at some starport. When I see something THAT out of character and context I get frustrated and I have to walk away.

With this new patch I think people are overrecting a bit. I'm not saying they are not justified, I'm just saying I don't think it will as bad as they think. Most people believe this system will lead to a LOT more Jedi in the game but I believe when they realize the full scope of this quest some will become disheartened and abandon it. I'm just going to watch it play out and maybe try some of it out. Like I said, I don't care about becoming a Jedi, I prefer my Seret personna too much, but if its fun and enhances my gameplay experience I'll try it.

I have to say you made me feel silly for going for my current template goal of Master Swordsmen (which I have been for a long time and love), Master Fencer, Master Brawler and TK 4/0/0/0. Now I hate PvP and I do not seek to be some sort of uber player but I do love PvE and want to be as formidable as I can against the big game. Maybe it will be too powerfull or maybe I'll be just good enough to get by. I honestly hope its the later.

So once again I applaud the way you play your Jedi. I think the game would be better if more folks did it that way. I hope my character can somehow interact with you sooner or later. Jedi RP is something I would like to try.

[Hashum]

I enjoyed your post, you made a lot of good points, and frankly I completely agree with the tef statements, this needs to come back. I want to be a jedi and frankly I think it makes it better for continuity. While I understand your issue with the FRS I have to disagree with you, often times the young jedi that don't quite understand the fine lines of the dark side are sent to do battle with the dark jedi as Luke was sent to fight his father, and Obi-Wan to fight Darth Maul. The books are very clear that as one grows with the force that these lines become more clear to the Jedi and it becomes more difficult for them to stay in a defensive mind set thus they sacrifice themselves, as Obi wan did and Luke was about to before Leia killed Kuellar I believe it was. So I don't disagree with the FRS however once you achieve a certain level it would be nice if you gained FR through another method, such as helping young Jedi. Allow higher ranked jedi to train young jedi and have the FR work like apprentice xp.

As to the NPC's I again agree with you, I'd love to see Vader rip into a Jedi Knight, even if it were me. However not being a Jedi I can't comment on the Nerf however I find it hard to believe that this one change could so drastically impact the profession in General. Considering you've not taken the trials for RP purposes I have to think the only reason you've had so much trouble winning is because in reality you only have a weak understanding of the force, and if you took the trials you don't have to participate in the ranking system do you? So you could develop your skills without changing your RP stance.

Now while there are too many Jedi it doesn't really mean there aren't more, often times Luke wondered about this, and even found another Dark Jedi after Endor that was very well trained. I can't recall his name but it was in the Thrawn series I believe. These Jedi often hid by using an area saturated by the force to hide them, as Yoda did on Dagobah. The dark cave helped offer him shelter from being located. This could have been true of other Jedi as well so I would like to see the population go down yes but I think it can fit into continuity having them.

[Ekade]

I have to say you made me feel silly for going for my current template goal of Master Swordsmen (which I have been for a long time and love), Master Fencer, Master Brawler and TK 4/0/0/0. Now I hate PvP and I do not seek to be some sort of uber player but I do love PvE and want to be as formidable as I can against the big game. Maybe it will be too powerfull or maybe I'll be just good enough to get by. I honestly hope its the later.

Whether it is your intent or not, you will be an uber PvE, PvP, Jedi Killer, flat out BAD ASS extraordinairre!

Sorry, on occasion I have delusions about becoming tough one day. However, Dancer is a part of my character and it is not doing anywhere.

[dillion]

While I understand your issue with the FRS I have to disagree with you, often times the young jedi that don't quite understand the fine lines of the dark side are sent to do battle with the dark jedi as Luke was sent to fight his father, and Obi-Wan to fight Darth Maul.

But in neither of these incident was teh Jedi sent or forced to do battle. Luke did it first in the Cave to prove he could face his fears to himself, 2nd on Bespin to save his friends, and 3rd he sacrificed himself as you said to allow the Rebels a opening. Never was he sent to fight as part of his training.

With Obi Wan, he fought to protect Amidala as part of his mission. A tinge of the dark side comes over him at the loss of Qui Gon Jin as he fights in anger though. But he was not sent to fight the Dark Jedi. It was not mandatory.

I think your idea of Apprenticing is a great idea for Force Ranking.

As for Jedi Knight. Once a Jedi completes his template he may via to take the trials. Once completes the trials he is permaovert and he is given a new robe. The robe contains the same +250 additional force and +10 to Force Regen as the Padawan Robes.

In essense the Knight is a Overt Padawan nothing more.

[Keer]

Bravo to you Dillion. I can sympathize with what you are going through. I've read your base proposals and they look sound in general.

In particular, the Bounty Hunter interaction debate is an old and oft-revived subject among the Smuggler profession. Many of the ideas that you have brought up here echo that debate.

If you or anyone else is interested in further detailed discussion on how SOE could get player bounties rolling, feel free to take advantage of the sweat that we've been generating on the SOE Smuggler forum. To make a long story short, we were tasked by the Devs back in April to come up with a system. We DID! Over the course of 4 days and over 200 "usuable" posts (ones that didn't just say "YaY!") we came up with a great system that pleased playstyles and professions across the board (many non-Smugglers were welcomed onto the Forum to post their input. While it did get nasty at times, overall it was beautiful example of player cooperation).

BUT, after all of that. After we had been asked to do the Dev's duty for free, and did, we got 2 months of straight silence. From June 29th until August 25 (last week) our "appointed Dev" just disappeared without a trace. It took our Forum Correspondent during the Combat Balance conference last week to actually corner the guy in his office in SOE-Austin, Texas to get him to post. And then that was only a "Hi. Sorry".

So, the Player Bounty system, for ALL players, not just Smugglers still sits in cobwebs on the Smuggler Forum for any to look at. I'd post a link to the direct thread, but the network that I'm on now denies access to SOE Forums, laff!

For anyone who would like to find it sooner than I can get back to my own computer, check the Smuggler Forum under the author name "GreenMarine" (the Dev who went David Copperfield on us). His last post in that thread is dated June, 29th so it should be easiest to find that way. Or you can just post directly in the Forum asking "Where is the Thread GreenMarine started with the Player Bounty system in it?" You'll get constructive help . The Smuggler Forum is still one of the friendliest and most mature in the game despite everything.

[Keer]

Also, not trying to steal thunder in my lat post above, but I just wanted to let you know that as far as the Bounty Hunter System goes, the Devs have heard it. Wanted to give you an idea of what you might face in regards to Devs feedback and the Bounty system in particular.

As far as I know from at least 3 different professions via the SOE Forums, Smuggler, Jedi, and Bounty Hunters themselves. And via a hand delivered 30 page Smuggler Revamp Document that the Smuggler Correspondent made in-person! Gotta give it up to this guy.

If you're out there, Smuggler_Caylin playing under Caylin Borealis of the Bria Galaxy, once again you've went above and beyond for us. /salute

[Novall]

Also, not trying to steal thunder in my lat post above, but I just wanted to let you know that as far as the Bounty Hunter System goes, the Devs have heard it. Wanted to give you an idea of what you might face in regards to Devs feedback and the Bounty system in particular.

As far as I know from at least 3 different professions via the SOE Forums, Smuggler, Jedi, and Bounty Hunters themselves. And via a hand delivered 30 page Smuggler Revamp Document that the Smuggler Correspondent made in-person! Gotta give it up to this guy.

If you're out there, Smuggler_Caylin playing under Caylin Borealis of the Bria Galaxy, once again you've went above and beyond for us. /salute

Once in a while a player rises up to really help the entire game as a whole. Its good to know they exist somewhere