"Designer Genes": Should We Go There?

[Hashum]

I'll not derail the thread with Crusade information, but I was simply saying religion is the basis for only my decision, and yes religion has had it's issues as has every topic in history.

What I was trying to do though was explain if Religion were not the reason to make a decision history should have taught us that it's not a wise road to go down. Much the same as Jerrel just did and maybe better then I did. Through history people such as Hitler, the Roman Empire, Paris of Troy, and Mary Shelly through Frankenstein have all showed us that if you give humans power they will corrupt it and destroy themselves.

Look at the Empire they did the same thing. Vader and the Emporer were consumed with their lust for power and resulted in the destruction of the Empire.

[Isleh]

There is a concern that the lack of genetic diversity of some US crops make them susceptible to disease and disease resistance was probably the reason those original strains were selected to begin with.

That could very well happen to humans if DNA alterations are allowed. It is very likely that, in a quest to cure cancer, we could make humans very susceptible to some sort of other disease.

Besides, we have already proved that we are inept at genetic design.

We have turned this




Into this

[Keer]

Besides, humans have already proved that they are inept at genetic design.

That's one botched up haircut someone gave that wolf!

But seriously, who changed a wolf into a chihuahua with genetics? Was that what they were trying to do? Or something else?

[Hashum]

anyone ever seen the movie Cujo?

[Weyune]

Im going to have to agree with Keer. My mind is just too open to dismiss the possibilities. And I can accept them, good or bad.

eugenics: eu-gen-ics (yoo jen' iks), noun, the science of improving the qualities of a breed or species, especially the human race, by the careful selection of parents.

In some forms we've benefitted from the above practices for centuries. Before "Gengineering" our livestock and crops have been subjected to eugenics for human benefit, either practical or pleasurable. Bigger hoof-stock, larger foul, fortified vegetables, thicker wool sheep, have all been the result of selective breeding and, recently, genetic modification.

For some reason many humans feel that its perfectly fine to mess with genetics when it comes to livestock as long as it means the end product they buy at the store is worth the money. Its not just in livestock, to say, make breeds of beef cows that have to be born through Cesarian Section because the calfs are too big for natural birth for example. We see it every day in domestic breeds of dogs, cats, horses..etc where we'll favor a certain trait in one and try to copy it, in later generations. Its not natural selection, but human selection rather.

But what about us? Directly. Once again there have already been actions taken in some circumstances of medicine, but so far no public attempts at genetically engineered humans from "womb to tomb".

Under what circumstances would furthering our practices in these fields be acceptable? Or are any conditions qualified enough to begin along a path that could be a slippery slope?

My personal stance is set in caution. While ideally, I can imagine several impractical traits about humans in general that could be changed or eliminated entirely. But the brake on this is the road that we have to take to get there and the problems that this could cause in present civlization.

I've seen a show about the possibility of "designer babies" where it touches on the scientific and moral implications of manipulating human genes to favor certain traits over others. Wouldn't all or most parents chose to have their child to grow up and succeed in life because they were very attractive, super smart, athletically inclined or business savy? Well, that is one of the issues it touched on. Such practices wheather right or wrong would still be limited to those who could afford it. My view is that if it can be done so be it. We do the same to dogs, and horses for example, trying to continue the line with certain traits because they benifit us humans in some way.

Questions:

1. What basic changes would you make to the human race as far as improving or eliminating present traits? ("Heat Vision", Teleportation etc., aren't choices :P ).

2. How far should we take Designer Genes? All, Some, or None?

3. Do you think that covert experiments are being conducted by some sanctioned or non-sanctioned program? (I do. With "Super Soldiers" being the first goal).

What else?

1. Maybe better resistances to viruses, diseases poisions, etc. Or genetics to cure things that are now sometimes irreversable should they be lost, like hearing and vision.

2. I think if they ever were 100% approved in society, the use of Genetics to enhance people should be strictly regulated so it is not abused.

3. Have only heard about super soldier, but I don't know enough about to to be sure.

[X'an Shin]

Just a quick thought on genetics (sure to fire up some controversial arguments!):

The idea of having a sort of repulsion to "eugenics" is amusing to me, since people have been attempting to isolate "favorable traits" in their offspring for millenia.

It's now commonly scientifically accepted that people pick mates based off of traits which will instinctively satisfy basic biological needs:

Good provider (female to male interest)

Strong, and successful. Nobody wants to date a loser. Handsomeness comes into play, but really, women instinctively look for traits which provide a good home and future for them and their offspring. Good looks are a bonus.

Strong birthing mother (male to female interest)

I like large posteriors and I cannot prevaricate. Also, other men like teh boobs. Wide hips and large breasts are (factually) signs that the woman will be able to successfully produce offspring. The fact that these two traits are (non) arguably the two that men talk about on women the most is no coincedence. As with men, looks are also a bonus.

The fact that the human genome is what determines these traits (well, the jury's still out on the "successful" gene), and that people have been selectively breeding them (albeit in a subconcious fashion) since the dawn of time is amusing to me.

So I say "go for it." Let science have a hand in it. It's only a matter of time before someone realizes that instead of having each generation of big-nosed people have plastic surgery, why not "genetically tailor" that big nose, instead.

[Hashum]

2. I think if they ever were 100% approved in society, the use of Genetics to enhance people should be strictly regulated so it is not abused.

There in lies the largest problem, this can not be done. There has never been an instance in which regulations have been able to prevent those that wanted to abuse something from doing so.

And the second problem is say good by to individualism and say hello to conformity. I mean lets face it, who is going to want to create a son or daughter that takes out the trash? We'll have a surplus of super atheletes and doctors and no one to empty their trash.

[X'an Shin]

2. I think if they ever were 100% approved in society, the use of Genetics to enhance people should be strictly regulated so it is not abused.

There in lies the largest problem, this can not be done. There has never been an instance in which regulations have been able to prevent those that wanted to abuse something from doing so.

And the second problem is say good by to individualism and say hello to conformity. I mean lets face it, who is going to want to create a son or daughter that takes out the trash? We'll have a surplus of super atheletes and doctors and no one to empty their trash.

Nah, tailored genes won't be cheap. Most garbagemen (to use your example as an example) aren't exactly born with a silver spoon in their mouth and reject their family's wealth to follow their dream of taking out the trash.

Tailored genes are going to be the norm for people who are born into families destined for Harvard. I doubt they'd every be so affordable (if they're even ever available at all) that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could just go out and pick them up on a garbageman's salary.

[Isleh]

Besides, humans have already proved that they are inept at genetic design.

That's one botched up haircut someone gave that wolf!

But seriously, who changed a wolf into a chihuahua with genetics? Was that what they were trying to do? Or something else?

Not genetics but eugenics...

Seriously, I agree there is a lot of potential but who decides what gets changed?

The state or doctors or some other organization? - Not a lot of people would go for that.

Individual Parents? - Er... there are people who shouldn't have children let alone choose their DNA makeup.

Or most likely, a combination of the two with restrictions of what can be altered set by the state with the Individual Parents deciding?

I've seen a show about the possibility of "designer babies" where it touches on the scientific and moral implications of manipulating human genes to favor certain traits over others. Wouldn't all or most parents chose to have their child to grow up and succeed in life because they were very attractive, super smart, athletically inclined or business savy? Well, that is one of the issues it touched on. Such practices wheather right or wrong would still be limited to those who could afford it. My view is that if it can be done so be it. We do the same to dogs, and horses for example, trying to continue the line with certain traits because they benifit us humans in some way.

Would DNA altered Stephen Hawking be "The Nature of Space and Time" Stephen Hawking without Lou Gehrig's disease or "who is Stephen Hawking"?

The How it works is as important as the Why when debating morality and right now, we simply don't know the How. We have educated guesses.

[TramelRaggs]

I fully plan on having my first child go under whatever genetic manipulation needed to ensure that it is male. I have my reasons and I'm stuck on this.

On the main topic of genetic engineering to develop the best possible, I do not believe for a second that their is a parent who could afford it that would not do it. Gattica success stories aside, a parent would want to do their best to give their child every advantage from the word go.

(Yes, I realize I am speaking to some parents from a non parent position, but if they can have the women in Cosmo write articles about what is good for men...)

[Hashum]

Nah, tailored genes won't be cheap. Most garbagemen (to use your example as an example) aren't exactly born with a silver spoon in their mouth and reject their family's wealth to follow their dream of taking out the trash.

Tailored genes are going to be the norm for people who are born into families destined for Harvard. I doubt they'd every be so affordable (if they're even ever available at all) that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could just go out and pick them up on a garbageman's salary.

That will only be temporary. In the beginning you're probably right and that will be the case. Only the Bill Gates, or Trumps will be able to afford such things. But as is the case with all products the price will go down and most everyone will be able to afford it.

Just look at the trend for DVD's, TV's, Plastic Surgery, Lipo, etc. Granted there maybe a small percentage of people that will never be able to afford it but the large majority would eventaully have access to this.

[X'an Shin]

Nah, tailored genes won't be cheap. Most garbagemen (to use your example as an example) aren't exactly born with a silver spoon in their mouth and reject their family's wealth to follow their dream of taking out the trash.

Tailored genes are going to be the norm for people who are born into families destined for Harvard. I doubt they'd every be so affordable (if they're even ever available at all) that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could just go out and pick them up on a garbageman's salary.

That will only be temporary. In the beginning you're probably right and that will be the case. Only the Bill Gates, or Trumps will be able to afford such things. But as is the case with all products the price will go down and most everyone will be able to afford it.

Just look at the trend for DVD's, TV's, Plastic Surgery, Lipo, etc. Granted there maybe a small percentage of people that will never be able to afford it but the large majority would eventaully have access to this.

Have to politely disagree with you on the cost.

This isn't like DVDs, or TVs, or anything manufactured. It doesn't even qualify on the same level of Plastic Surgery.

Think of the human being as a car for a moment. But not the kind of car you drive, or I drive. We're not Hondas, or Fords, or anything mass produced off of a line. Every human is different from every other single human on the planet. Except for maybe twins, there are no two humans who are alike. Every human is akin to a custom-built car, every part hand-crafted and machined, not manufactured.

You ever take a hand-built car into a shop and try and have it repaired? Most mechanics won't even do it because the nightmare of trying to find or machine the right part alone is too much effort, let alone trying to figure out how it all fits together. You just can't go in and say "I want this nose." Sure, they could probably easily isolate where your "nose" RNA strands were (just like any mechanic could point out where the air filter was), but I don't think replacing them would ever be as easy as just "popping the hood" or swapping out a part. Doing it wrong, at least in the fetal stage, would have cataclysmic results that could cascade into mutant-like problems (and not the good kind).

It took scientists and supercomputers something like 10 years to decode the human genome, and I'm not positive but I don't even think they're done yet.

This would be one of the most complex endeavors that science has ever embarked. Hell, they can't even get cloning sheep to go right.

I wouldn't count on this being affordable in your, mine, or our children's lifetimes.

[Hashum]

Have to politely disagree with you on the cost.

This isn't like DVDs, or TVs, or anything manufactured. It doesn't even qualify on the same level of Plastic Surgery.

Think of the human being as a car for a moment. But not the kind of car you drive, or I drive. We're not Hondas, or Fords, or anything mass produced off of a line. Every human is different from every other single human on the planet. Except for maybe twins, there are no two humans who are alike. Every human is akin to a custom-built car, every part hand-crafted and machined, not manufactured.

You ever take a hand-built car into a shop and try and have it repaired? Most mechanics won't even do it because the nightmare of trying to find or machine the right part alone is too much effort, let alone trying to figure out how it all fits together. You just can't go in and say "I want this nose." Sure, they could probably easily isolate where your "nose" RNA strands were (just like any mechanic could point out where the air filter was), but I don't think replacing them would ever be as easy as just "popping the hood" or swapping out a part. Doing it wrong, at least in the fetal stage, would have cataclysmic results that could cascade into mutant-like problems (and not the good kind).

It took scientists and supercomputers something like 10 years to decode the human genome, and I'm not positive but I don't even think they're done yet.

This would be one of the most complex endeavors that science has ever embarked. Hell, they can't even get cloning sheep to go right.

I wouldn't count on this being affordable in your, mine, or our children's lifetimes.

You have some very valid points there that I must concede. However eventually there will be scientists that were genetically eng. and super duper computers and will be able to make it more affordable. At which time all threats discussed prior would become issues at that time. Again the issues you bring up are only postponing the problems.

And you've forgotten the biggest X factor. CREDIT! People will mortgage their house or apply for a credit line to be able to give their child these "benefits". And there are always people with money that are willing to lend it to them. So if someone really wanted this, they could get it. And that's my main argument against it. If someone wants it they'll get it, and depending on who the someone is we could have a problem.

Again look to Star Wars. I don't want a Clone Wars here.

[Weyune]

This would be one of the most complex endeavors that science has ever embarked. Hell, they can't even get cloning sheep to go right.

I wouldn't count on this being affordable in your, mine, or our children's lifetimes.

Ah Dolly the cloned sheep May she rest in peace.

[Isleh]

Nah, tailored genes won't be cheap. Most garbagemen (to use your example as an example) aren't exactly born with a silver spoon in their mouth and reject their family's wealth to follow their dream of taking out the trash.

Tailored genes are going to be the norm for people who are born into families destined for Harvard. I doubt they'd every be so affordable (if they're even ever available at all) that any Tom, Dick, or Harry could just go out and pick them up on a garbageman's salary.

That will only be temporary. In the beginning you're probably right and that will be the case. Only the Bill Gates, or Trumps will be able to afford such things. But as is the case with all products the price will go down and most everyone will be able to afford it.

Just look at the trend for DVD's, TV's, Plastic Surgery, Lipo, etc. Granted there maybe a small percentage of people that will never be able to afford it but the large majority would eventaully have access to this.

Have to politely disagree with you on the cost.

This isn't like DVDs, or TVs, or anything manufactured. It doesn't even qualify on the same level of Plastic Surgery.

Think of the human being as a car for a moment. But not the kind of car you drive, or I drive. We're not Hondas, or Fords, or anything mass produced off of a line. Every human is different from every other single human on the planet. Except for maybe twins, there are no two humans who are alike. Every human is akin to a custom-built car, every part hand-crafted and machined, not manufactured.

You ever take a hand-built car into a shop and try and have it repaired? Most mechanics won't even do it because the nightmare of trying to find or machine the right part alone is too much effort, let alone trying to figure out how it all fits together. You just can't go in and say "I want this nose." Sure, they could probably easily isolate where your "nose" RNA strands were (just like any mechanic could point out where the air filter was), but I don't think replacing them would ever be as easy as just "popping the hood" or swapping out a part. Doing it wrong, at least in the fetal stage, would have cataclysmic results that could cascade into mutant-like problems (and not the good kind).

It took scientists and supercomputers something like 10 years to decode the human genome, and I'm not positive but I don't even think they're done yet.

This would be one of the most complex endeavors that science has ever embarked. Hell, they can't even get cloning sheep to go right.

I wouldn't count on this being affordable in your, mine, or our children's lifetimes.

I agree.

A chimpanzee's genome is about 98.5% identical to a humans. Get something wrong and your child's career opportunities could suddenly be limited to stacking boxes to get to the banana.