Great topic on SOE Forums...

[Ekade]

Normally I loathe negativity posts.. but I like some of this guys analysis.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/boar ... .id=208075

[Coiyonite Adaks]

This is just my honest opinion and I am not attacking anyone, so don't take it personal.

SWG suffers from slow development, something that most people have no patience for. The problem is that SOE has created an obviously large code base to run the game and because of that it takes FOREVER to debug and fix problems. Sure you can poop out a peice of code in one day, but then days and months of testing must follow to see what else you broke by changing that one thing.

As a programmer myself I don't complain. Every time I play or interact with something new in game I get a good idea in my head what the developers must have gone through to make it work and most often I don't envy them.

My take is that people who have never developed or written code really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to pissing about broken professions, combat balancing or anything else that gets whined about. SWG is perhaps the most complex MMOG ever and because of that its going to take a long time to smooth out all of the professions. Not to mention that the art of making a MMOG in itself is something that is not perfected. As a matter of fact, it is a process that is still being invented.

SOE hasn't forced anybody to play this game and the cancellation process is quite simple. The fact that people continue to play, whine in the forums and apparently have the time to write an academic paper on it are just wasting their time. They're preaching to the choir, because Sony wants it fixed too - thats how they make money. Obviously its getting fixed as quickly as possible. In the mean time stop whining about your MMOG, write a paper about acheiving world peace or something useful.

Coiy

[Seret Sajet]

I'm backing Cioy 100% on this one. We all have our complaints and there is plenty that piss us off but we still log in day in day out because of what we don't complain about.

To rant is fine, to complain is normal, to write a disertation on the problems with this game is assanine. At that point I have to say its time to log off and stop playing games altogether.

[Gaaralow]

Ha. It's obvious the guy had some time to spend and wanted to do a write up. Can't condemn him for that. no one makes fun of you for what yo do with yer free time... *cough*owning way too many SWG accounts*cough*.

But seriously, what's the big deal is about a guy writing a paper? Yer saying his time would be better spent playing videogames all day? Would ya say the same about artists? After all, he's not hurting anyone. no one made ya read it. No need to make fun of him for just writing.

[E-bo Obi]

YAY! GAARALOW

[Coiyonite Adaks]

But seriously, what's the big deal is about a guy writing a paper? Yer saying his time would be better spent playing videogames all day? Would ya say the same about artists? After all, he's not hurting anyone. no one made ya read it. No need to make fun of him for just writing.

He can do what he wants, but I am just sharing my opinion that he did a real good job on something that's useless. Its like going to church to convince the priest that God created everything. Sony already seems to have a good idea of what needs to get fixed.

Coiy

[X'an Shin]

My take is that people who have never developed or written code really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to pissing about broken professions, combat balancing or anything else that gets whined about.

I have to disagree with you on this one, as we're talking about a consumer based product.

I can bitch if my car wasn't manufactured right, because I paid for it. I don't need to be an engineer or an auto mechanic to have that right or that leg. I was told I would be getting product A, when in fact they delivered product B.

That gives me (or more specifically, the guy who wrote that dissertation) room to bitch.

That being said, you're right that the cancellation process is very simple, and that complaining about it now almost a year into the game is to some degree counter-productive. However, keep in mind that paper was written four months after launch; a reasonable amount of time to expect that the fixes that were promised within that time frame would be addressed.

The person who posted the link was merely attempting to point out that the majority of those issues still haven't been addressed, and that's a symptom of a dying game.

As a consumer, and as a game developer, I worry a lot about JtL. I worry that this game is merely attempting to trap the people still willing to play it into continuing their subscription by dangling another broken (yet still fat) carrot out in front of their faces, rather than fixing the problems inherant in the design, regardless of how deep that scope is.

[X'an Shin]

To rant is fine, to complain is normal, to write a disertation on the problems with this game is assanine. At that point I have to say its time to log off and stop playing games altogether.

But I guarantee you that the people who design MMORPGs for a living took that paper to heart, and that every developer out there is striving to figure out what made World of Warcraft so good, and why Galaxies is regarded by the MMO community as the "last place" game in a large pool of top shelf MMOs.

This is big business, guys, and he's right in saying that there's core issues at stake with the game. The only way to fix things is to identify the problems first.

If you don't want to get down to the brass tacks of what's wrong with the game, that's fine. I really don't want to write a paper on it either, but don't think that this level of game design deconstruction doesn't happen on a daily basis in the industry (i.e. it's not asinine; just anal).

[Seret Sajet]

Should developers take notes from consumer feedback? Absolutely. Should they consider constructive critisizm? Always. Should they read a players 10 page paper on why their game needs work? I don't think so.

I hate to disagree with X'an, he does have the inside in the industry point-of-view. But in my own line of work I'd get mighty pissed off is someone sent me that much crap on my projects. I welcome critizism always. It helps me get better and grow as a designer. But what I hate getting is non-designers (people in customer service, sales, etc) telling me how to design something. They start suggesting things like flow and color and while I value others feedback I don't need to be told how to do my job. I don't need someone to analyze my websites and send me big ole stacks of documents on them.

I guess I'm just bitter because that happens to me often. Carry on, nothing to see here.

[Coiyonite Adaks]

Move along, move along... These aren't the bugs we're looking for.

That pretty much sums it up. Unlike a car, you're not locked in to 48-60 payments. All I am saying is that people should just cancel, shut up and move along if its that bad. Its like sitting in a starbucks and complaining the coffee tastes like ass but you keep showing up every day and complain all over again. If you don't like something, stop doing it.

Account cancellation hurts SOE more than any scathing post on a forum.

When I was 12, I saved the princess only to get sent back to world 1-1 with enemies twice as hard. I sure as hell didn't write a dissertation to Nintendo about how I wanted an 8-bit FMV of Mario humping the princess or complain that that King Koopa has 100% heat and kinetic resists essentially nerfing the fireball profession.

Coiy

[Seret Sajet]

When I was 12, I saved the princess only to get sent back to world 1-1 with enemies twice as hard. I sure as hell didn't write a dissertation to Nintendo about how I wanted an 8-bit FMV of Mario humping the princess or complain that that King Koopa has 100% heat and kinetic resists essentially nerfing the fireball profession.

Coiy

He he.

King Koopa:
Armor: Medium
Damage: Heat
Resists:
Acid: 100%
Heat: 100%
Kinetic: 100%
Stun: 100%

Vulnerability:
Axe cutting the rope holding up the bridge he's standing on

[Coiyonite Adaks]

Move along, move along... These aren't the bugs we're looking for.

That pretty much sums it up. Unlike a car, you're not locked in to 48-60 payments. All I am saying is that people should just cancel, shut up and move along if its that bad. Its like sitting in a starbucks and complaining the coffee tastes like ass but you keep showing up every day and complain all over again. If you don't like something, stop doing it.

Account cancellation hurts SOE more than any scathing post on a forum.

When I was 12, I saved the princess only to get sent back to world 1-1 with enemies twice as hard. I sure as hell didn't write a dissertation to Nintendo about how I wanted an 8-bit FMV of Mario humping the princess or complain that that King Koopa has 100% heat and kinetic resists essentially nerfing the fireball profession.

Coiy

Ya know, I just gotta learn to shut up. To each his own. I just don't see the point, but if you want to complain go ahead. My #1 complaint in the game is not the game itself but some of the assanine things people do in game. To that extent, there is only so much I can handle before letting some people know that actions have consequences.

Someone flung a hefty peice of poo at me yesterday and it seems the problems on Lok are about to get out of hand.

Coiy

[X'an Shin]

Move along, move along... These aren't the bugs we're looking for.

That pretty much sums it up. Unlike a car, you're not locked in to 48-60 payments. All I am saying is that people should just cancel, shut up and move along if its that bad. Its like sitting in a starbucks and complaining the coffee tastes like ass but you keep showing up every day and complain all over again. If you don't like something, stop doing it.

Account cancellation hurts SOE more than any scathing post on a forum.

When I was 12, I saved the princess only to get sent back to world 1-1 with enemies twice as hard. I sure as hell didn't write a dissertation to Nintendo about how I wanted an 8-bit FMV of Mario humping the princess or complain that that King Koopa has 100% heat and kinetic resists essentially nerfing the fireball profession.

Coiy

That's not a fair assessment. This is more like you show up at Starbucks, say the coffee tastes like ass, publish a review on it, and walk away. Then someone comes along 8 months later, finds your review, tastes the coffee, and says "Holy shit this guy was totally right, this coffee DOES taste like ass, and you haven't fixed it in 8 months!" You guys are TOTALLY missing the point. As I stated above, that piece was written only FOUR MONTHS after the game launched. That's a pretty safe date to say "Hey, I've played this game to its ultimate limits, and it's broken."

Someone ELSE linked to it and reposted it just a couple of days ago, pointing out that things STILL HADN'T BEEN FIXED YET. You guys are working under the assumption that it was written recently, and that he's just rehashing old news.

Yes, by all means, cancel if you're that dissappointed. I'm sure the guy who wrote the original article has by now, thereby validating your points. But the point remains that shit that was broken at launch is still broken, which is the only reason someone linked to the original piece.

[X'an Shin]

Someone flung a hefty peice of poo at me yesterday and it seems the problems on Lok are about to get out of hand.

Ruh roh. Post details about it in the Noct thread.

[Coiyonite Adaks]

That's not a fair assessment. This is more like you show up at Starbucks, say the coffee tastes like ass, publish a review on it, and walk away. Then someone comes along 8 months later, finds your review, tastes the coffee, and says "Holy shit this guy was totally right, this coffee DOES taste like ass, and you haven't fixed it in 8 months!" You guys are TOTALLY missing the point. As I stated above, that piece was written only FOUR MONTHS after the game launched. That's a pretty safe date to say "Hey, I've played this game to its ultimate limits, and it's broken."

I am not singling this guy out, I hope he has quit the game. My point is that too many people keep paying/playing and at the same time keep whining.

Writing a review on about coffee in such detail is to me just as assanine as the time he spent dissecting SWG - thats why I chose that analogy. The other point to make is that some people think the coffee tastes great. Right now I like the coffee but not necessarily the sugar.

Coiy