On Thoughts of The Saga: For Discussion

[Keer]

In thoughts on the saga, once again my favorite element comes to the forefront of my mind: Obi-Wan Kenobi in the desert.

- Episode 3 tells us that at least some of his time was spent learning to commune with The Force and speak to others from "beyond".

- What else was he up to? Did Obi-Wan Kenobi ever lose faith? In the long years and uncertain future did he ever lament the passing of a glorious age in despair...anger...aggression?

- Why Tattooine?

Yes, the Lars family was there and Luke could be raised by them as part
of the extended family, but wouldn't that be risky? Anakin/Vader had memories of his past and if the aim was to hide Luke from him wouldn't it be better for a less familiar place to be chosen?

- Why *not* Dagobah?

In Jedi tradition, force sensitives were taken away in early youth, infancy if possible, to be raised among the order. Wouldn't Yoda, the +800 year old "grandmaster" Jedi, and legendary Obi-Wan "The Negotiator" Kenobi be ideal teachers to the Skywalker twins from infancy?

On Dagobah or elsewhere Yoda and Obi-Wan could have had Luke & Leia knights by what, 20 years old? A dynamic duo that could have rivaled even Obi-Wan and Anakin. Then off to whup up on the forces of evil as fully armed and operational Jedi.

I try to play both sides of my argument so I'm thinking maybe it was safer if all of the New Hope jedi squad (Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia) were separated. Thus, in case of Imperial discovery, not all of them would be
in one place.

But that still leaves the question, "Why Tattooine?" If I was trying to hide from Saddam in his heyday, I wouldn't pick his hometown of Tikrit.

Many stories and books start off with the aim of answering questions so here's mine for some current or future author to explore:

- Was there some explicit reason that Yoda and Obi-Wan did not train Luke and Leia as Jedi from infancy?

- Was there some connection to Anakin's past other than the Larses that mandated Luke being raised on Tattooine?

- What did Obi-Wan Kenobi's life on Tattooine consist of between the time of Ep3 and Ep4? Did he ever venture off on some other "damn fool crusade" during that time? Or was it all meditating and waiting? How did he feel during all of those years (almost 20 years)?

Are there any books that cover Obi-Wan during this time period (I stopped reading SW books in the 90's)?

This is not for criticism, just an observation of "story fuel" potential that this saga has displayed time and again. If I had the time to write the story, I damn sure would.


Obi-Wan rules.

[Isleh]

Vader was never fully converted over to the dark side and perhaps Yoda, Obi-Wan and the Emperor could sense it?

During those 20 years both sides engaged in a subtal tug-of-war.

Perhaps Obi-Wan, by being in close proximity to the Lars home, was protected, not by the force, but by it being to painful for Vader to turn his thoughts there to look. Perhaps the Emperor didn't press the matter because forcing Vader to turn his thoughts there would break the web of lies.

[E-bo Obi]

Yodi, Obi Wan, and the Skywalker twins in one place? Well lets look at it this way...

Its easier to elude capture in a smaller group. If there were 4 people to take care of that in turn requires more supplies and more planning to support. When you require more supplies you most likely will become a better known "customer" to someone. Now they could have lived off the land on Dagobah but then there is the other issue of the force footprint. Yoda hid on Dagobah because of the heavy dark side presence there. It was able to mask him from the emporer.

I have more, I'll form it up better and get back to you.

[Sepiv]

I think these are great questions... I guess though that really Yoda and Obiwan wanted to give Luke and Leia the ability to have more normal upbringing. It couldn't be clear exactly how long it really would have been before a Rebellion could actually make a stand against the Empire, plus the Jedi temple and its traditions were gone. Maybe they were letting it "rest with the Force."

Here's another question for the group: why is something familiar about Dagobah to Luke? As if he had been there before? Was Yoda sending young Luke visions in his dreams? Or had Luke seen vague glimpses of the future?

[Sepiv]

Vader was never fully converted over to the dark side and perhaps Yoda, Obi-Wan and the Emperor could sense it?

During those 20 years both sides engaged in a subtal tug-of-war.

Perhaps Obi-Wan, by being in close proximity to the Lars home, was protected, not by the force, but by it being to painful for Vader to turn his thoughts there to look. Perhaps the Emperor didn't press the matter because forcing Vader to turn his thoughts there would break the web of lies.

Sure! It makes me remember that Vader never sets foot on Tatooine. Here, the stolen plans for *the* most important thing to the Empire are somewhere on Tatooine and he leaves it to his men to go and search. Even after days (?) of searching for droids with no apparent leads, Vader doesn't go down. Emotional conflict there, hmm?

[Isleh]

Vader was never fully converted over to the dark side and perhaps Yoda, Obi-Wan and the Emperor could sense it?

During those 20 years both sides engaged in a subtal tug-of-war.

Perhaps Obi-Wan, by being in close proximity to the Lars home, was protected, not by the force, but by it being to painful for Vader to turn his thoughts there to look. Perhaps the Emperor didn't press the matter because forcing Vader to turn his thoughts there would break the web of lies.

Sure! It makes me remember that Vader never sets foot on Tatooine. Here, the stolen plans for *the* most important thing to the Empire are somewhere on Tatooine and he leaves it to his men to go and search. Even after days (?) of searching for droids with no apparent leads, Vader doesn't go down. Emotional conflict there, hmm?

/whisper Or it could simply be a plot hole.

*ducks under the barrage of various objects thrown at her*

Fun exercise never the less

[Shensen]

Plot holes? Pfft, such things do not exist in Star Wars....that's like crying in baseball.

[Keer]

1. Bigger Force footprint with OWK, Yoda, and Skywalkers:

-...maybe, but wouldn't there still be some mitigation from the Dagobah Dark Side presence? (this also assumes that's the reason Yoda went there. It's EU info only as far as I know).

- even granting that as true, then still wouldn't OWK and Luke, son of Vader, leave a nice big Force footprint on Tattooine with no dark side presence (that we know of) to mask them?

- and Vader face to face with Leia for however long an interrogation takes on the Death Star didn't sense the Force footprint (If Leia was the "another" as Yoda mentioned then she would be force sensitive).

2. Life Support supplies even shipped in for only 4 people on a remote planet in a galaxy of trillions? I doubt they'd have anything worry about... Wouldn't need to fish. They could all just force grab fish out of the water, filet, and cook them before they hit the ground

3. Emotional pain for Vader on Tattooine:

- I think that's a good case. Anakin didn't like Tattooine ("...so much sand, and it gets everywhere" from Ep:2). Slavery, Mom dying, yeah I could see him not wanting to go back there...ever.

- not landing on Tatt himself to look for the plans. More EU explanation, but it's been said that Vader was on the Death Star to watch Tarkin. Palpatine didn't quite trust him with the Death Star on his own. So, Vader might not leave for that reason (ehh, shrug). And the bad memories.

4. Dagobah familiarity to Luke: I'd chalk it up to a vague dream via The Force. I wouldn't doubt that Luke maybe had dreams going back to childhood about some of the future. (When packing for the Alderaan trip: "I doubt I'll need this grappling hook and line...hmmm...naw, lemme take it...just in case).

5. Plot Holes: Given. No doubt.

[Sai'nu]

Maybe the clues are already there in a way.

Luke remembering Dagobah "..like something out of a dream." may stim from Yoda's use of the Force from a distance as "A long time this one have I watched. As he looked away; to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. What he was doing."

Maybe Luke felt Yoda watching in on him too even as Kenobi did the same.

Leia... well it wasn't until Luke started using the Force that even he knew what it was. By the time he was flying in the trench perhaps the proposed watching of Yoda; the teachings of Obi-Wan; and his own wonder had magnified it enough that Vader could sense that "This one is strong with the Force." where he might not have even felt him on Tatooine.

Yoda went somewhere out of the way to hide (I've already forgotten if he even said where he was going in Episode 3. Maybe only Obi-wan really knew.) and this may be why he wasn't quickly found. Obi-wan may have banked on Tatooine being a remote world also, with little reason for Vader to return there, as being safe enough to take Luke there.

This also requires us to think that... Vader believes the Emperor. He killed Padme and thus never knew the babies were delivered. Same for the Emperor. Dead and still sporting her baby-carrying figure... they assumed too much.

Only knowing that somewhere out there that Yoda and Kenobi survived...

"You should not have come back," Vader said.

This almost implies that Vader wasn't even going to look for his old master.

His mind was on running the Empire. Destroying the Rebellion. Ultimately ruling the galaxy. Very little time to look for a washed up former master who had run into hiding and was all by himself. The... "They can't possibly hurt us now." way of thinking. They'd won.

Just my take on it anyway.

[Keer]

Good stuff, good stuff. I love that Death Star showdown.

"Obi-Wan is here. And The Force is with him."

"Escape is not his plan. I must face him. Alone."

Not all over dramatic. Stated just so... You get the mood that Vader thinks "Yeah, I can probably whip his ass...but, you know, he was a bad mofo in his time. Cagey bastard. Respect due." LOL

Wonder what would have happened had Obi-Wan not given up the fight. He probably would have died still, but Vader might have been missing some armor pieces...helmet all cock-eyed, breathing worse by the end. LOL.

[Sai'nu]

Might've picked up that General Grievious wheeze!

Vader: I *hack* *cough* *breath mask sound* have won *hack* *cough* my master! Obi *hack* *breath mask sound* Wan is dead!

Emperor: Do you need new batteries?

[xyryn]

Fun thread!

I believe the feeling of familiarity that Luke was referring to, after crash landing on Dagobah, was the feeling of being watched.

Of course, that begs the question of how he became familiar with the feeling of being watched. He wasn't being watched by the rebels who apparently trusted him. He was seemingly totally unaware of the watcher in Mos Eisley before boarding the Falcon. Uncle Owen didn't keep all that good an eye on him either...after all, Uncle told him to go out to the back 40 all by his lonesome to fix a fence.

Thus, we get back to Old Ben and Yoda.

[IagoBoom]

**SPOILERS** (Skip the first 2 paragraphs to skip the spoilers)

In a recent SW comic, Star Wars: The Purge, Vader and several (about 8) surviving Jedi knights/mastes/padawans are lured to somewhat remote planet by an over-ambitious knight. Her goal was to overpower Vader with numbers. The bait? Obi-Wan Kenobi is to be attending the meeting.

Vader took the bait, alone, even after Palpatine explicitely told him to ignore the remaining Jedi, for their light has gone out of the universe, and they are of no concern. Evidently, after this Vader agreed to give up his search. (I've my doubts, but he seemed pretty agreeable after being insubordinate to Palpy).

The dark side is full of overconfidence. I think Sidious factored in the possibility that the children might have survived. To ensure Anakin's allegiance, his story required that the children and mother not survive the incident on Mustafar. Vader did everything for Padme and his future family. He wanted nothing more than to protect them. If Palpatine hadn't convinced him of their deaths, he would have had to kill Vader, or let him leave to search for them. Calculating, the new emperor decided the chance was well worth it. Twenty years of a superbly trained dark-side Force user that he could trust implicitely vs. two Jedi, forced into hiding, and a child (Palpy didn't know there were two) that might not have survived the attack on its mother. I think any sensible evil mastermind would choose to take that chance, as well.

Separating the twins was a perfectly logical step. Leaving one with Organa seems sketchy, but hiding in plain sight, while receiving no training unless Luke falls, might keep her off radar...or...*calculating*... What if, like the death of the dark master on Dagobah, the massive slaughter of the Jedi Academy left a dark spot on Coruscant? How about the Tusken slaughter on Tatooine? Vader gets angry, he leaves a trail of charred bodies...and a massive dark shadow on the land?

We don't see Vader on Tat, but Obi-Wan believed he was to blame for the deaths of Owen and Beru...probably indirectly, if our logic holds true....or it might be that episode of Troops with the domestic dispute that goes awry...

As far as Luke being on Tat... What if Obi-Wan has lost faith in the practices of the Jedi Order? You know, we've been raising Force sensitives up as children, and maybe this isn't working. The kid's probably safer with two parents, anyways....and, really....Obi-Wan Kenobi - Jedi Master...changing diapers? I don't think so.

Another take (one I think is more likely): Obi-Wan and Bail Organa didn't lose touch. Not long after RotS, Bail called Ben: Yo Ben, we got's some trouble on the NYPD Blue set (or some such other galactic disaster), and I need a Jedi to fix it. Yer green buddy isn't available. Can you find a baby sitter?

Ben realizes that he can't stand idly by and let the galaxy fall to the Empire....and, therefore, his hiding spot on Tat (chosen because of Anakin's utter distaste for the planet that he'd confided in Obi-Wan) was probably chosen by the Force, rather than logic. Luke's family is here, and the perfect place for the kid while Kenobi had to be away. A quick wave of his hand later, and Luke had a new home.

(Once I'm farther along with writing novels, I hope to convince LA to let me tell the story of how the Empire failed to take over the Hapes Cluster, because of one lone Jedi that had to drop off a kid with his step-uncle.)

We saw Anakin using the Force without knowing it, as a very young child. He drove podracers before he turned 10. The kid was USING the Force without training and without being told to. Luke's supposed to be around 18 in ANH, right? Do we really think he's that big of a moron...wait...nevermind. He mentions flying a skyhopper through Beggar's Canyon shooting womp rats. He's using the Force, but, as always, Luke's clueless.

As far as Luke's familiarity with Dagobah... Luke's a nitwit. He's feeling Yoda's presence and feeling a similarity with Obi-Wan. Luke's as attentive as a box of hair, and knows so little of the Force that he forgets to trust his feelings. I think he's confusing what he's sensing through the Force with a lost memory...possibly combined with a precognicient dream. (Plus, we know Obi-Wan stuck around near Luke to watch him...what other reason would he have for living in a desert near the one thing he's trying to protect?)

[Isleh]

As far as Luke's familiarity with Dagobah... Luke's a nitwit. He's feeling Yoda's presence and feeling a similarity with Obi-Wan. Luke's as attentive as a box of hair, and knows so little of the Force that he forgets to trust his feelings. I think he's confusing what he's sensing through the Force with a lost memory...possibly combined with a precognicient dream. (Plus, we know Obi-Wan stuck around near Luke to watch him...what other reason would he have for living in a desert near the one thing he's trying to protect?)

Maybe Obi-Wan was also shielding Luke in another way. Maybe he is masking Luke's unskilled use of the force and if Vader or Palp came to Tatooine because then sensed Luke's unskilled use of the force, perhaps Obi-Wan could deceive them into thinking it was his presance and not Luke.

Hiding the dim light with a much brighter one if the need arose.


Also, in the thousands of years the Jedi have been hunting the Sith, great effort was probably made to find and locate the places where force sensitives were blinded. After all, if the place could mask a Jedi, it could mask a sith.

Maybe Yoda took a page from Sidious' book and removed the record of the dark master's death on Dagobah while they were in the academy as well? Erasing them all would give his choice of a hiding place away and he knew that no other Jedi could/would ever make it back to the academy to find a location to do the same as he.