The Jedi vs BH Debate

[Jabe Adaks]

can you be a jedi and a BH? or is that too evil?

You wouldn't be a very powerful Jedi, but I would guess you can.

Jabe

[toront]

can you be a jedi and a BH? or is that too evil?

You can. Dabbler templates are at a disadvantage due to low force bar. They also were likely to be hunted often due to low Jedi sp on the BH terms, however that is changing. It is possible, during the respec, there were a few that tried this.

[Isleh]

New players are coming into this game because that want to play a Jedi. The BH that started all this picked up this game because he wanted to play a Jedi.

1 of 2 things have to happen.

1 - There has to be other "alpha" professions besides Jedi if SOE wants people to play anything other than Jedi. By "alpha" I mean quest based progression beyond the Elite for every other profession.
2 - There has to be no "alpha" professions.

The chances for option 2 happening is 0.

I am hoping that the making a master BH the only ones who hunt Jedi is paving the road to an "alpha" BH.

Yeah.. and the problem becomes this.. Unless you are willing to spend hundreds of hours grinding, you may as well not even bother with any sort of PvP combat because you will get destroyed.

Healthy competiton = fun. Futility = boredom.

Balance anyone?

Well, at least after publish 20, you don't have to do it alone

[Ka'eri]

This is a good discussion I think

here's my few cents into the subject

I accept the fact the Jedi loose xp on BH death, and they should. The Jedi grind should be long and hard.

The thing that irks me the most is that as of right now, A jedi has nothing to gain for killing a bh (FRS isnt' in atm), and yet a BH has hardly nothing to lose. yeah yeah I know they loose the time hunting and the droids and possible wounds and decay (if they are silly bh's)

Basicly there isn't much of a risk a BH has compared what a jedi risks (xp loss) I'm not sayin the rist should be equal. But there should be some risk involved.


For example, I've seen several discussions the offical forums, and I like the idea of a BH reputation system.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/boar ... .id=462647


I also think they really need to implement player bountiers on other professions IE smugglers and other BHs like it was mentioned at fan fest

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/boar ... .id=431064

Anyways It's late here and I've tried to make much sense as possible at the moment

Ka'eri

[Kahuaria]

I'm personally tired of seeing the devs give in to the Jedi, the scenario isn't suppose to be .. jedi walk around swinging their glowsticks in public with no consiquences. Unless everything I've ever read/seen about starwars is wrong then jedi should be in hiding. it seems like we've really strayed from the storyline and time period of the game. I know that becomming jedi can be hard work and yea it sucks when you lose xp, but hey there are ways to avoid that, and I've been there when the hate tells come, I've only seen a few jedi that took their being killed gracefully. There is a level of acceptance you need to have when you choose to be a jedi.... you will be hunted, you will be killed, you will loose xp, and you will get over it. I can completely agree with Toront on this matter.

[Hashum]

I completely agree with the FRS putting a damper on the system for Jedi right now, however the FRS was broken before it was taken offline so I'm really hoping they fix it. There have been numerous posts on the Jedi forums discussing how to fix the FRS. One of our members Glzmo has an excellent vision and this is something that I posted on how I'd like to see the FRS better balance the BH vs Jedi system and the physical visibility of Jedi and not having consequences for their actions.

Ok, I've been hearing a lot of grief lately about Jedi being all over the place and being too powerful, and it really drives me crazy. Now in my opinion the reason that we're so hated amoung players is because of our current situation in the FRS. Now a lot of this has probably already been suggested in one way or another but with a new correspondent taking over soon and changes to the FRS hopefully being looked at by the Dev's I thought this would be a good time to post something.

1) Factions- Ok, lets face it many of the players hate us because in PvP we are the alpha class (as we should be) however other players would like to PvP especially in the GCW without seeing Jedi everywhere and owning the battle field. This I believe is a legit request by the other players. So as has been state a million times on these forums the Dev's need to change the Knight Trials so we simply choose Light Jedi or Dark Jedi. We can then have our own private PvP war. In doing so and electing a faction (Light or Dark) we are then removed from the GCW. This gives the other players a place to PvP and makes it fit better into continuity.

2) Someone ban lightsaber's from cities, or set some kind of radious oustide city limits that prevents Jedi from fighting, one of the biggest complains of the other players (and some Jedi) is loading into a starport and getting ganked. Considering we are the most powerful profession (1.5x) why not give the players the cities and we conduct our combat in the wild as would have been done if there were Jedi to avoid being caught. This again would reduce the visibility of Jedi to the player base and making them happy not seeing lightsabers all over the place. If this isn't possible then impose harsh penalties for someone that does fight in a city or starport with a lightsaber. Such as FRS XP loss, Visibility penalty, and Imperial NPC attacks.

3) Master/Padawan Relationship- Due to the large numbers of Jedi why not allow Jedi after completed the Knight Trials to take on a Padawan learner, the rules of this relationship are fairly well defined in other posts so I'll not get into them, other then to say no visibility is gained by hunting together with your Master. Your Master can teach you the skills necessary to advance instead of traveling to one of the shrines, however if your master doesn't have the skill you want you could then visit a shrine to learn your desired skill. A Master will gain FRS XP for teaching the Padawan Jedi Skills and as a percentage of his padawans Jedi XP (5% maybe)

4) BH/Jedi/Visibility- Ok lets face it once you've completed your template BH's and visibility are of little concern, especially if you're in the FRS. No BH can effectively hunt Jedi 1:1 in this scenario (of course it's possibly but highly unlikely if both are familiar with their respective templates the Jedi will typically win). And due to the high requirements of advancing through the FRS Jedi almost WANT to be hunted. Thus purposely increasing their visibility. So to help solve this problem why not create an FRS penalty at the time your visibility reaches the limit to list you on the terminals? This would make us not want to be seen, as Jedi should be hiding, this will also make the other players happy not seeing Jedi all over the place. Now because our XP penalty would come when being added to the Terminals we should be able to make that up by gaining FRS XP by killing any BH that's able to take the mission. Now this is how I envisioned the XP payouts to be weighted.

a. Killing a Jedi of the opposing faction
b. <Being listed on BH Terminals>
c. Teaching Padawan Jedi Skills
d. Killing a MBH
e. XP gained from hunting with Padawan
f. Killing a non-MBH

Anyway just some thoughts I've had and thought I'd share them with all of you. Flame away or offer suggestions on possibly improving this, and maybe we can give the new correspondent something to work with. Anyway it seems everytime I try to post this the page doesn't load so I've had to retype this about 10 times so I may have forgotten something and if something doesn't make sense please point it out to me.

Now is the time for us to get something we think would improve the game situation, for both Jedi and Non-Jedi. The dev's are concered so they may have an open ear. Lets try to take advantage of that by getting some changes made.

Thanks,

[Isleh]

1) Factions- Ok, lets face it many of the players hate us because in PvP we are the alpha class (as we should be) however other players would like to PvP especially in the GCW without seeing Jedi everywhere and owning the battle field. This I believe is a legit request by the other players. So as has been state a million times on these forums the Dev's need to change the Knight Trials so we simply choose Light Jedi or Dark Jedi. We can then have our own private PvP war. In doing so and electing a faction (Light or Dark) we are then removed from the GCW. This gives the other players a place to PvP and makes it fit better into continuity.

At this point, why even bother playing the same game? It's a contradiction. Jedi should be in hiding, Jedi players want to take part in all parts of the game. You might as well include a checkbox that puts all Jedi on the ignore list and makes their characters not show up in the game.

Jedi need an antithesis in game that fits the timeline and not be isolated because the conflict between the two (the Jedi Player's desire to be part of the game and the overall desire to fit the timeline) will just continue. We have 3 icon professions in the game that could all interplay and add more to the game rather than just shoving Jedi into a corner or sweeping them under the rug.

An alpha class bounty hunter is needed. The bounty hunter guild could have a ranking system and be a close equal to a Jedi Knight. Jedi still have Jedi Master so they can still maintain that mystique of being uber.

There could be an alpha smuggler that could slice terminals and remove Jedi from the them but can be hunted by alpha BHs. They could do things like smuggle Jedi from planet to planet and keep them from being found... BH visibility if they fail to smuggle (see the SOE Smuggler Forum on some of the proposed changes) or if a Jedi they are being paid to protect gets killed ( the smuggler was compromised as well )

Get the alpha smuggler and alpha BH in place and then allow current Jedi to respec into each and you'll probably cut the Jedi population to a third.

[DuoXDuoX]

Full template jedi arent invincible. They can be beaten in solo duels. I beat several full template jedi with duox when i was master smuggler/master rifles. And if they dont have at least 2 trees of defender my alt melee stacker will destroy the jedi. They arent invincible its just a really really hard fight.

[Hashum]

1) Factions- Ok, lets face it many of the players hate us because in PvP we are the alpha class (as we should be) however other players would like to PvP especially in the GCW without seeing Jedi everywhere and owning the battle field. This I believe is a legit request by the other players. So as has been state a million times on these forums the Dev's need to change the Knight Trials so we simply choose Light Jedi or Dark Jedi. We can then have our own private PvP war. In doing so and electing a faction (Light or Dark) we are then removed from the GCW. This gives the other players a place to PvP and makes it fit better into continuity.

At this point, why even bother playing the same game? It's a contradiction. Jedi should be in hiding, Jedi players want to take part in all parts of the game. You might as well include a checkbox that puts all Jedi on the ignore list and makes their characters not show up in the game.

Jedi need an antithesis in game that fits the timeline and not be isolated because the conflict between the two (the Jedi Player's desire to be part of the game and the overall desire to fit the timeline) will just continue. We have 3 icon professions in the game that could all interplay and add more to the game rather than just shoving Jedi into a corner or sweeping them under the rug.

An alpha class bounty hunter is needed. The bounty hunter guild could have a ranking system and be a close equal to a Jedi Knight. Jedi still have Jedi Master so they can still maintain that mystique of being uber.

There could be an alpha smuggler that could slice terminals and remove Jedi from the them but can be hunted by alpha BHs. They could do things like smuggle Jedi from planet to planet and keep them from being found... BH visibility if they fail to smuggle (see the SOE Smuggler Forum on some of the proposed changes) or if a Jedi they are being paid to protect gets killed ( the smuggler was compromised as well )

Get the alpha smuggler and alpha BH in place and then allow current Jedi to respec into each and you'll probably cut the Jedi population to a third.

Actually Jedi don't want to be involved in all aspects of the game. Frankly SOE has forced us to participate in the GCW and PvP on a large scale in the past to facilitate improving our rank in the FRS. And with no word from them when it's coming back, if there will be credit for your current PvP rank or what will determine how you fit back into the FRS many have just not changed their habits and continue to participate.

If you don't believe me just go read the Jedi forums. I think you would be very surprised by how many Jedi would prefer to control their own numbers VIA a Jedi PvP system that only engages Jedi vs Jedi in PvP and compeltely revmoes us from the GCW. And simply pits the alpha class against the alpha class. Problem solved.

I'm not against adding more alpha classes such as an alpha BH or alpha any profession for that matter. But I don't think that will solve the problem it will only make it worse. Now instead of having to do the Jedi you can just do a BH series of quests to be uber (maybe not the exact equivlent but less time for only a little less power would be very appealing, especially while waiting to get Jedi possibly). So then those of us that are BH's or Rifleman would just switch to alpha BH or alpha smuggler and all you would see are BH's, Jedi, and Smugglers. Despite some opinions there is currently a very good diversity of combat professions overall.

Really if you think of it, lets take this community we have what 300 members of which lets say 15 are Jedi so only 5% of the total population here are Jedi. Really that will probably be fairly consistant for the entire server sure the PvP groups may have a higher consentration but other groups would be lower as well, the casual gamers etc. So 5% is really probably a pretty solid number. So the real problem as I've said is the way SOE forces Jedi to be so visible in certain aspects of the game, a simple tweak of some of that would make it seem like the actual population was even smaller then it was because we would be in hiding as we should be.

[Ekade]

Honestly I feel there should be no alpha classes. Every combatant should feel like they have a chance to make a contribution and not get absolutely wtfpwned by someone who simply has more time to grind than they do.

Everyone should be subject to some sort of "reputation" rating based on PvP success. Faction ranks and rewards should be given based on this rating.

The point is that you want to encourage people to PvP. This is done by providing incentives, and also a fun an fair environment in which to do so. Right now it sounds like the PvP is only fun and fair to the Alpha Class. That is not a good thing at all.

[Isleh]

Actually Jedi don't want to be involved in all aspects of the game. Frankly SOE has forced us to participate in the GCW and PvP on a large scale in the past to facilitate improving our rank in the FRS. And with no word from them when it's coming back, if there will be credit for your current PvP rank or what will determine how you fit back into the FRS many have just not changed their habits and continue to participate.

If you don't believe me just go read the Jedi forums. I think you would be very surprised by how many Jedi would prefer to control their own numbers VIA a Jedi PvP system that only engages Jedi vs Jedi in PvP and compeltely revmoes us from the GCW. And simply pits the alpha class against the alpha class. Problem solved.

I'm not against adding more alpha classes such as an alpha BH or alpha any profession for that matter. But I don't think that will solve the problem it will only make it worse. Now instead of having to do the Jedi you can just do a BH series of quests to be uber (maybe not the exact equivlent but less time for only a little less power would be very appealing, especially while waiting to get Jedi possibly). So then those of us that are BH's or Rifleman would just switch to alpha BH or alpha smuggler and all you would see are BH's, Jedi, and Smugglers. Despite some opinions there is currently a very good diversity of combat professions overall.

Really if you think of it, lets take this community we have what 300 members of which lets say 15 are Jedi so only 5% of the total population here are Jedi. Really that will probably be fairly consistant for the entire server sure the PvP groups may have a higher consentration but other groups would be lower as well, the casual gamers etc. So 5% is really probably a pretty solid number. So the real problem as I've said is the way SOE forces Jedi to be so visible in certain aspects of the game, a simple tweak of some of that would make it seem like the actual population was even smaller then it was because we would be in hiding as we should be.

Do you really think SOE will remove Jedi from the GCW? Ever? I saw the request in the SOE forums to create a 2nd PvP teir for Jedi and allow people who want to participate in the GCW without fighting Jedi. There was very loud complaints that non-jedi would never enter that 4th teir. There are alot of players who participate in the GCW who get Jedi because they are an alpha and can dominate the battlefield and they will not want that.

My opinion that PvP and the GCW is dominated by Jedi are based on the observation of when I participated in a battle in anchorhead one weekend where over half of the participants were Jedi. It is also based on the attempts by Griggs and others to create a semblance of the GCW by using guilds and excluding Jedi from those guilds. That is not what I call a good Diversity. There are Jedi healers, tanks, mezzers... plus you are 1.5 times as powerful. Why be something else?

[Skorixor]

The thing that irks me the most is that as of right now, A jedi has nothing to gain for killing a bh (FRS isnt' in atm), and yet a BH has hardly nothing to lose. yeah yeah I know they loose the time hunting and the droids and possible wounds and decay (if they are silly bh's)

Basicly there isn't much of a risk a BH has compared what a jedi risks (xp loss) I'm not sayin the rist should be equal. But there should be some risk involved.

jedi shouldn't get any reward for killing a bh...why?

anyone can be a BH, not everyone can be a jedi

being a jedi IS the reward

[Hashum]

Actually Jedi don't want to be involved in all aspects of the game. Frankly SOE has forced us to participate in the GCW and PvP on a large scale in the past to facilitate improving our rank in the FRS. And with no word from them when it's coming back, if there will be credit for your current PvP rank or what will determine how you fit back into the FRS many have just not changed their habits and continue to participate.

If you don't believe me just go read the Jedi forums. I think you would be very surprised by how many Jedi would prefer to control their own numbers VIA a Jedi PvP system that only engages Jedi vs Jedi in PvP and compeltely revmoes us from the GCW. And simply pits the alpha class against the alpha class. Problem solved.

I'm not against adding more alpha classes such as an alpha BH or alpha any profession for that matter. But I don't think that will solve the problem it will only make it worse. Now instead of having to do the Jedi you can just do a BH series of quests to be uber (maybe not the exact equivlent but less time for only a little less power would be very appealing, especially while waiting to get Jedi possibly). So then those of us that are BH's or Rifleman would just switch to alpha BH or alpha smuggler and all you would see are BH's, Jedi, and Smugglers. Despite some opinions there is currently a very good diversity of combat professions overall.

Really if you think of it, lets take this community we have what 300 members of which lets say 15 are Jedi so only 5% of the total population here are Jedi. Really that will probably be fairly consistant for the entire server sure the PvP groups may have a higher consentration but other groups would be lower as well, the casual gamers etc. So 5% is really probably a pretty solid number. So the real problem as I've said is the way SOE forces Jedi to be so visible in certain aspects of the game, a simple tweak of some of that would make it seem like the actual population was even smaller then it was because we would be in hiding as we should be.

Do you really think SOE will remove Jedi from the GCW? Ever? I saw the request in the SOE forums to create a 2nd PvP teir for Jedi and allow people who want to participate in the GCW without fighting Jedi. There was very loud complaints that non-jedi would never enter that 4th teir. There are alot of players who participate in the GCW who get Jedi because they are an alpha and can dominate the battlefield and they will not want that.

My opinion that PvP and the GCW is dominated by Jedi are based on the observation of when I participated in a battle in anchorhead one weekend where over half of the participants were Jedi. It is also based on the attempts by Griggs and others to create a semblance of the GCW by using guilds and excluding Jedi from those guilds. That is not what I call a good Diversity. There are Jedi healers, tanks, mezzers... plus you are 1.5 times as powerful. Why be something else?

To answer your question yes I think SOE will remove Jedi from the GCW, because as I said above that fankly is what the majority of the Jedi want. Yes of course you have guilds like xXx where people get Jedi for the sole purpose of pwning someone, but then you also have people like those here that get Jedi for RP reasons and immersion reasons. But the majority of Jedi want out of the GCW so yes I think that's exactly what will happen.

And no offense but basing your opinion off one instance of a PvP battle in one city does not give your opinion much support. I'm aware of Griggs attempts to establish guilds with no Jedi but that's to better simulate immersion or a fair playing field to them because the game doesn't currently allow that because of Jedi. Now I'm sorry but I do a great deal of reading about the Jedi profession, the Mechanics and the objections non-Jedi have to that profession as it relates to them in game. And if you were to read a substantial amount of this you will see that Jedi do in fact for the most part want the same thing non-Jedi do and that's a fair and balanced battlefield.

Now the difference is Jedi want that fair balance field to come as a result of Jedi vs Jedi PvP without the GCW being a part of their PvP and really wish to be completely removed from the GCW and not participate in it at all. And Non-Jedi want it to be balanced by leaving Jedi in the game but making them only 1:1 like every other profession. And I'm sorry but I can't agree with that.

It's taken me over a year to grind Jedi, really it's taken me close to two years and yes there should be some rewards and as Skor said being a Jedi is that reward. 1.5x isn't overwhelmingly more powerful then any single profession, especially since our CL doesn't go over 80 giving no advantage to damage output there like in PvE. As several people have already mentioned in this thread it's possible to take out even a full template Jedi with the correct planning and strategy. But most people simply want to be able to rush in start firing and still have a chance to win. But that doesn't fit anymore with the Star Wars universe then Jedi being in the time period.

Every game is going to have an alpha type class there's just no avoiding it. You can say WoW doesn't offer something like that, but I know from those that play WoW that you can essentially create that alpha class by picking the best class for your game style. As I understand it Mages have the greatest DPS and are great in PvE however Cleric's or priests are the best PvP because of their healing. The same thing was in SWG without Jedi, you could stack Melee professions and essentially own PvP even against Jedi. So there's no avoiding the alpha class it's better to just try to remove the alpha class form certain situations especially when that's what they want. And for the most part they do.

[Isleh]

Honestly I feel there should be no alpha classes. Every combatant should feel like they have a chance to make a contribution and not get absolutely wtfpwned by someone who simply has more time to grind than they do.

Everyone should be subject to some sort of "reputation" rating based on PvP success. Faction ranks and rewards should be given based on this rating.

The point is that you want to encourage people to PvP. This is done by providing incentives, and also a fun an fair environment in which to do so. Right now it sounds like the PvP is only fun and fair to the Alpha Class. That is not a good thing at all.

I agree.

The anchorhead battle I played in was *not* fun. Take a level 53 and duel an level 80 over and over. Do you think it will be fun for the level 53?

53 x 1.5 = 80 (79.5)

Sure you may get the ocassional good fight. Some people like it when the odds are stacked against them. My advice is that maybe a trip to Los Vagas is in order for them.

Also, If you isolate the alpha profession from the rest of the game then why oh why were they ever added in the first place?

Isolating Jedi is not on SOE's agenda. Look at this latest patch and the fact that jedi don't gain visibility from group members. I will stick with my guns and say that Jedi will not be removed from the GCW and that SOE will move to actually intergrate Jedi Players into more of the game.

[Isleh]

And no offense but basing your opinion off one instance of a PvP battle in one city does not give your opinion much support.

Not just one but the combination of other's actions and that.

I'm aware of Griggs attempts to establish guilds with no Jedi but that's to better simulate immersion or a fair playing field to them because the game doesn't currently allow that because of Jedi.

Doesn't that validate my opinion?