SPLIT: Ewoks!

[Jaminos]

Thos reminds me of that fanfilm where it shows a storm trooper uniform with a big smoking hole in the middle. Then one of the officers says "You Tell Lord vader the armor dose not work"

[IagoBoom]

It's just like the Revolutionary war. The Colonies used guerilla tactics and was able to defeat the well trained English army despite their superior numbers and weapons.

Time for some uncomfortable truths here as I know there is much French hate pervading the community. In my admittedly non-professional standing as a military history buff, yes it's true that guerilla tactics were used to good advantage agaist the British Imperial forces during the Revolutionary War. But my fellow citizens, like it or not, 'twas the French Navy that sealed the deal "for the win" at the Battle of Yorktown and the "beginning of the end" of the war. Guerilla tactics withstanding, a technologically equal force checkmated the Brits. That's not opinion, that's history.

Now on the Star Wars angle, if the Ewoks say, were even struggling against the Emperor's best legions and got some close air support from the stolen Lambda Shuttle (tricked out by Han and Chewie for extra damage perhaps?? *shrug*) THEN I maybe could have bought the defeat.

Rebels in the Death Star trench run outnumbered and still winning? Yeah, that's plausible. But, I have to agree that Lucas wanted to throw in the sentimentality despite... whatever. And he had every right to end his story how he wanted. Oh well. *shrug*

The force of equal technology argument can be countered with the guerilla tactics argument. Vientnam? How big is the imperial force guarding the shield generator on Endor? Who says the number of storm troopers put down by Ewok efforts even compares in a 100:1 ratio to the number of Ewoks slaughtered off camera by the remaining troops that were stationed farther from the actual bunker?

I expect a better strategy than "Let's throw our main force of furry fodder at the trained army." Lucas couldn't show the 3 other "Ewok Strike Teams" (LOL) that were thrown at the other sides of the bunker to distract any reinforcements. Ewoks died...probably en masse.

[Krusshyk]

Hmmm...a lot of little people hating.

Ok, maybe they shouldn't have been able to defeat the Imperial forces on Endor...but take a look at all of the factors.

The Empire has been using conscripted forces at this point, no? I am assuming that their entire army is not volunteer. I don't know how dedicated conscripts are, but I would assume they care a little less about their work than your average alien-hating volunteer. So we can probably assume that some of the imp forces are conscripts and are less adamant about doing their jobs. -1 point for the Empire.

There were a shit ton of Ewoks. Technologically inferior though they may be, sheer number alone was going to be at the very least a distraction for the imperial forces. Also keeping in mind, they aren't defenseless children. The larger traps they set are gonna do some damage, armor or not. Even if we assume a spear cannot penetrate the shell of an ST's armor, I notice a great deal of joints that are uncovered. Using the strength of numbers, a group of ewoks (attacking in surprise, remember) could easily rush a few stormies and start aiming for the black. Even if it is an attrition tactic, it gets the job done. +1 ewoks

There was in fact a rebel squad down on Endor correct? They were captured at first, but the diversionary attack of the ewoks freed them and brought them back into the fray. Granted, it is only one squad, so maybe 12 guys? But they all have blasters and they are all certainly elite soldiers. Why would the rebs send a bunch of greenies to take out the most important tactical target of the mission? +1 point for the ewoks

Two members of the rebel team are Han Solo and Chewbacca, two heroes of the republic. Han, the crafty smuggler who is more skilled with a blaster than any stormtrooper, and chewbacca, a wookiee who is perfectly at home fighting amongst the trees. +2 for the ewoks.

That's my piece. Sure, if you put a bunch of ewoks and a bunch of imps on a battlefield and let em have at it, it's a no brainer: Imps every time. But this time around, it wasn't really a fair fight. Also, the ewoks don't REALLY win the fight anyway...you notice that it shows the ewoks doing an awful lot of running and dying. Their goal wasn't victory per se; it was to distract the imperials and make them give chase, so that Han and Chewie could get their shit done.

And Keer, your point about the French Navy in the Rev war is well taken, but I don't see the relevence here. You are talking long term victory being guaranteed by a technologically equal support force, correct? This battle is just a snapshot; one battle in a war full of them. It's like Washington crossing the Delaware to attack Trenton. The french navy had nothing to do with that particular battle, so their involvement in the war, within the context of that ONE battle, is irrelevent. As such, the involvement of the Rebels technologically equal military, while not a major part of the force on Endor, is kind of moot.

[Ekade]

What is a stormtrooper in the Emperor's best legion?

The Galaxy is a big place. How does one entity project power over such a large area? Do they have troops stationed everywhere all the time? No.

The Empire pushes it's weight around with threat of force. A stormtrooper legion represents that threat.. and implements it when needed. As such, a stormtrooper is someone who is trained to enter and fight in territory that is unknown to them. That is their job.

The Emperor's best legion would be extremely good at this.


What is an ewok?

An ewok is a sentient creature living in the trees, enjoying life in the stone age. Would they even know how to do battle against a military force?

They freaked out when the saw Leia.. they freaked out when they saw Threepio.. I think the entire race would have booked the moment they saw an ATST stomping through the woods.



This is one of the few times where suspension of disbelief simply did not happen for me. The Battle of Endor was crap.

In my mind, I see the Imperial Military as something that is good at their job, not as comic relief. In terms of our RP.. do we just assume that every Imperial Roleplayer is a clown in white armor? I think I will carry some rocks in case a stormtrooper comes to harass me.

[Keer]

The force of equal technology argument can be countered with the guerilla tactics argument. Vientnam?

First, I was addressing Hashum's statement that the Endor was "just like the Revolutionary War". The Revolutionary War not the Vietnam War. My argument was specific to that war and it's use in a comparison that was not accurate, not the general viability of guerilla tactics vs. conventional.

That aside, I will address the Vietnam War. Another misconception there. Hollywood would mostly tell us that all that American G.I.s came up against in Vietnam were sandal and pajama wearing country folk toting AK-47s. That was the Viet Cong. Though they were very effective, they were the smaller part of the enemy force which also consisted of the much larger North Vietnamese Regular Army (NVA). Add to that "guest star" troops from the Chinese, Korean, and even ethnic Asian Russian Far East Armies and you've got one hell of a professional experienced force to reckon with.

Also, the US forces in Vietnam were continually hamstrung by their political superiors from striking strategic targets of the enemy. It was a peculiar war that does not lend itself easily to broad arguments of "well it worked there and then, it should work here and now." Vietnam = Not good for universal comparison.

If you want a better example to use for your Ewoks in the "It can be done against all odds" category you want to use the Soviet-Afghan War from 1979. The Russians did not hold back. They had full political support, superior weapons, trained troops, torture, exploding stuffed animals for maiming future warriors, the works...and still they lost.

And Keer, your point about the French Navy in the Rev war is well taken, but I don't see the relevence here.

Once again, relevance pertaining to the Revolutionary War being used as an example of guerrilla war trumping all.

You are talking long term victory being guaranteed by a technologically equal support force, correct?

Incorrect. I never claimed tech superiority was a guarantee, long or short term.

It's like Washington crossing the Delaware to attack Trenton. The french navy had nothing to do with that particular battle, so their involvement in the war, within the context of that ONE battle, is irrelevent.

In the context of that one battle, yes. But if you take Yorktown out of the war, then you've still got a war. Keep the Trenton victory and you've still got a war. What good would the Endor victory be if the Rebel Navy had still lost the battle?

Enemy Captured at Trenton: 900
Enemy Captured at Yorktown: 8,000

8,000 British troops unable to retreat via sea or receive food resupply from their navy due to the French blockade. If able to retreat...or eat, the British Army would have been able to continue to fight. Worth almost ten Trenton victories Yorktown was not just another battle. Even more it was the "I Quit" button for England. French naval intervention was decisive and indispensible for victory, in that battle and in that war. Check the history. Yorktown ended the war.

Once again, I'm basing all of this on how the Revolutionary War are used incorrectly as examples, that's all.

In terms of our RP.. do we just assume that every Imperial Roleplayer is a clown in white armor? I think I will carry some rocks in case a stormtrooper comes to harass me.

I agree. This is the essence of the argument.

[Keer]

And please don't forget the Ewok "hanglider"...dropping even BIGGER rocks! :lol:

[Ekade]

And please don't forget the Ewok "hanglider"...dropping even BIGGER rocks! :lol:

I'm suprised our resident aviation experts have not jumped all over that one yet.

Teddybear in glider made with heavy materials.. no airspeed or "lift", yet still capable of flight.. yeah.. riiiight. Then again, maybe it was their bravery that made it possible.

The laws of physics were better represented by Coyote versus Roadrunner.

[Hashum]

It's just like the Revolutionary war. The Colonies used guerilla tactics and was able to defeat the well trained English army despite their superior numbers and weapons.

Time for some uncomfortable truths here as I know there is much French hate pervading the community. In my admittedly non-professional standing as a military history buff, yes it's true that guerilla tactics were used to good advantage agaist the British Imperial forces during the Revolutionary War. But my fellow citizens, like it or not, 'twas the French Navy that sealed the deal "for the win" at the Battle of Yorktown and the "beginning of the end" of the war. Guerilla tactics withstanding, a technologically equal force checkmated the Brits. That's not opinion, that's history.

Now on the Star Wars angle, if the Ewoks say, were even struggling against the Emperor's best legions and got some close air support from the stolen Lambda Shuttle (tricked out by Han and Chewie for extra damage perhaps?? *shrug*) THEN I maybe could have bought the defeat.

Rebels in the Death Star trench run outnumbered and still winning? Yeah, that's plausible. But, I have to agree that Lucas wanted to throw in the sentimentality despite... whatever. And he had every right to end his story how he wanted. Oh well. *shrug*

Ok, while the French Navy did play a role in the victory at Yorktown don't forget that the Colonies were left virtually fighting the war alone until their arrival. We the USA had to push the Brit's to Yorktown without the aid of the French Navy. And it was then when the Brit's were cornered between the two that we finally achieved total victory.

I don't believe it's fair to credit the French Navy with Victory. Had the Brit's managed to escape at Yorktown to sea and return to England or land somewhere else within the colonies to stage a counter attack it was the guerilla tactics that set the stage for the victory. And it would have been very likely that we'd have won the war without French support. I am a student of history myself and fail to agree with your conclussion here.

And if you wanted to credit the French Navy with assisting or even being instrumental in our Victory the same thing could be said of the Rebel Forces that were freed after being freed.

They confinscated an AT-ST and were able to draw out the enemy forces from the base securing the victory there. We have no idea how many Ewoks died after this. Not to mention the Alliance Navy doing battle overhead and what the destruction of the Death Star visible to all the Imperial Forces on the ground would have had to their moral.

If you really think about the battle what do we see the Ewoks actually do? Blow up 3 or so AT-ST's which was accomplished by large traps set and triggered by using themselves as bait, and overwhelming a few Stormies? I love the Ewoks and all but it's not like they won the war or anything, they helped decide the fate of a very major battle is all, a battle that was won in space not on Endor.

[Krusshyk]

And please don't forget the Ewok "hanglider"...dropping even BIGGER rocks! :lol:

I'm suprised our resident aviation experts have not jumped all over that one yet.

Teddybear in glider made with heavy materials.. no airspeed or "lift", yet still capable of flight.. yeah.. riiiight. Then again, maybe it was their bravery that made it possible.

The laws of physics were better represented by Coyote versus Roadrunner.

What heavy materials? Wood and animal skin? Ewoks also weigh less than the average human, and even with ballast like rocks, it doesn't mean they can't fly. All they need to do is find a certain area where lift can be generated and circle around in the lift current until they get to a desired height and start their attack run. How far it goes before it hits the ground will be determined by it's glide ratio (which is unaffected by weight). If it is heavier, sure it will go down faster, but it will cover the same amount of ground as a smilarly built glider before it touches down. Also, I imagine there are mountains and ridges on Endor (I mean that ewok in Carrivan of Courage uses a glider to escape from a cave in a mountain side) so there are areas where upward lift can be generated.

Physics shmysics.

Here is a link on how gliders work.
http://travel.howstuffworks.com/glider3.htm

[Jabe Adaks]

I will never ceased to be amazed to what parallels will be drawn, what scientific measures will be compared and what analogies will be created when arguing about ewoks and storm troopers... LOL

Jabe

[Keer]

I will never ceased to be amazed to what parallels will be drawn, what scientific measures will be compared and what analogies will be created when arguing about ewoks and storm troopers... LOL

Jabe

You beat me to it Jabe. The more that I look at this thread, the more it looks like the Little Rascals debating about who's better, Flash Gordon or Tarzan. It was fun, though.

[Jaminos]

What is an ewok?

An ewok is a sentient creature living in the trees, enjoying life in the stone age. Would they even know how to do battle against a military force?

They freaked out when the saw Leia.. they freaked out when they saw Threepio.. I think the entire race would have booked the moment they saw an ATST stomping through the woods.

Well I am not supporting eaither the Ewoks or the Stormies in this but I have to say this much. Ewoks considered Threepo and Leia gods. They have already seen ATST's walking around and to my guess a few getting scorched along the way they learned to put aside their fear to kill those who killed whatever. In my opinion Ekade is right about GL adding in Ewoks was stupid. I think Wookiees would have fit better and it would have prevented the Star Wars Christmas Special.

I think that the stormies should have won but they did not. If you choose to accept it or not is not my business but the fact is that they did win in the end according to the movies. Now I myself consider many of the books as part of the Star wars saga as any of the movies. Now as for some books like where Chewbacca dies I do not consider it part of it in my thoughts but it dose not mean it could happen. It is just simple denile for me.

Anyhow guys we need to stop spitting venom between this and as for the whole Rev war I consider the French as much a part of it as the Americans but they were at the end of it and did not do the bulk of the fighting so give us Americans a little credit but the french deserve thanks for stopping anymore bloodshed done on our soil.

That said I am going to go and take an Ewok and a Stormie to a bar and be friends.

[IagoBoom]

How's this argument:

The Ewoks fought and defeated a small army of stormtroopers...

Clone Troopers (Stormtroopers in my example) fought and defeated several armies of battledroids....

Battledroids fought and defeated a small army of Wookiees.

THEREFORE...

Ewoks > Wookiees in combat ability. ;)

[Isleh]

And please don't forget the Ewok "hanglider"...dropping even BIGGER rocks! :lol:

I'm suprised our resident aviation experts have not jumped all over that one yet.

Teddybear in glider made with heavy materials.. no airspeed or "lift", yet still capable of flight.. yeah.. riiiight. Then again, maybe it was their bravery that made it possible.

The laws of physics were better represented by Coyote versus Roadrunner.

It was the hot gases escaping from GL.

[Isleh]

I read somewhere originally Endor was suppose to be the Wookies home world but before shooting GL and marketing got together and thought that the movie needed cuddly plush to sale and so the Ewoks where born.

Pure marketing. The word "Ewok" was never mentioned in the movies yet ask someone, anyone "what is an ewok".

Behold! the real reason for the ewoks