Observation and semi rant

[KirtViza]

Ok Im here, Probally the All time Jedi hater, and yes if I ran LA or SOE jedi would have either never came out or when the numbers got too high I would removed your asses from MY game. Now T is right and so is Yala, but Skor is too. We are all right in our POV, Jedi have taken over this game by far, they get Weapons/specials that Rival Non-jedi, and Yea My DMG/SPD capped HLR might look nice, with the way Ranged wpns work Low min dmg/HIGH Max...My actual Dmg sux, jedi Dmg is Beautiful cause of the 200 dmg difference from min and max. Now yes I do agree Jedi-5professions-Need fixes..But Come on No offense but Jedi have WAY more then 250 SP.

MLS/MDEF Healer 4000 and whatever else you FOTM's got
Here you have MAster Tank/Master DDer, and a Cm for yourself.
So to a non-jedi that would be. Master Rifles/MasterTka cm4000. If im not mistaken their may not be enough SP to do that, and even if their is TKA doesnt have as high armor. Now tell me somthing WHAT THE FUCK IS A MASTER DEF's SKIN MADE OF??? They get close to if not 8k armor I believe not 100% sure but still. And In battle that armor wont break/decay and Maybe for that one fight have an Armor hole

All im saying is Yes jedi is 1.5 times stronger cause you have more SP for your 5 professions that can and if the jedi pop goes up more which it is...Their will be no needd for AS's with everyone jedi..WS's no more non jedi craftable only weapons..So whats will be left? Every jedi's alt that will be either one of two things. Reasource Whore or BH for the missions loot.

Ok im done I think And yes T is very correct, I had to drop my rifle and switch to my Carbine cause I was out Dmging him and they wanted my beautiful self.

[Ekade]

Now the shocking part. After roughly an hour of hunting Bols I have already learned Pistol grips 1 to 3 in Pistoleer. I cannot believe how easy this is to skill. Healing XP capped after 2 lairs, where I didnt even try to function as a healer. I could Master Pistoleer easily in a days work. Next profession tomorrow if I have the time. Thats silly really. Where is the feeling of accomplishment? Well, anyway Im pleased I can get that done fast and try out various things.

Back in the hologrind days, it would take determined grinders 4-5 days to master any elite combat profession.

Read the Theory of Fun in the Jibber-Jabber forum. It talks about how the human brain tries to break down a problem to it's simplest form and then turn it in to a predictable activity that can be repeated to extract the maximum benefit in the shortest amount of time. That's what we have done with XP.

The core problem is that the "lair" system is just too darn simple and does not scale well. A "lair" is scaled to be mildly challenging for an average group with an average number of people in it. A lair is not designed to be difficult for a full-template jedi or 3. Yet the lair offers up good XP just the same.


The game is just not very balanced, and never has been. Some things are way too easy, some things are way too hard.


They need to sit down and really look at how to scale challenges and rewards.

[Sai'nu]

I'm not even going to attempt to dig up the exact qoute by Thunderheart but once upon a time he said something along the lines of, "...no matter what we do players will always find the quickest way to get something done eventually."

Personally, I don't have a problem with Elite professions being able to be grinded within a day; As long as the player can truly say they have 'fun' with that profession. Especially since this has nothing directly to do with attaining Jedi any longer; your grinding for your own personal profession and that's it.

In Lineage 2, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, here,... and every other MMO I've looked at... there is always this 'wait' and 'too hard/ too easy' character build/ quest system. For once, I think they've done right for the 'casual' player they've claimed this game was for by allowing this kind of leveling.

In part, while I still dislike the stiff penalties to Jedi vs. no penalty to BH system.... Fact is, it isn't so horrible to lose that xp with this system in play.

I'm going to lean towards the real problem being... they need more challenging content for the players that want that. Just to make sure there is still appeal left after your through with your template: It can be argued that in other MMOs that's where the real fun begins.

This brings up so many arguments as well. Popularity of one profession over another; which class thinks they need fixes more; Continuity. The list goes on and on. It just feels like all too often we're beating a dead horse.

[Zyre Mercutio]

Jedi aren't any better at high end content then the rest of you. We still take high dmg from high CL MOB's in those dungeon's just like you do. Believe me SOE does not cater to the Jedi.

SOE may not cater to Luke, Obi-Wan, etc but thye certainly cater to the players wanting to play jedi. Look around and see how many players either have a jedi or are working on unlocking theirs? What percentage of the player population fall into that category? Whatever the number its way out of balance. Basically SOE tried to close the barn door on jedi long after the livestock got out and eaten by voritors. Too many jedi have done to their class like expansion in baseball has done to pitching, diluted it.

To me I play the game casually not wanting it to seem like work, and thats the way folks that "grind" treat the game, like a job. Thats just not fun for me, and I play plenty of "useless" professions here, master musician and master droid engineer to name two.

To me I think jedi should be more formidable but I also feel like there are too damn many of them so if all jedi in the game got a "cost of living" increase back into their powers then the game would be wildly out of balance for what should be 99% of all player characters. the non jedi. Game balance here is something that will always seesaw but thats the nature of the game. One thing I think they can do is tweak(nerf) the professions that seem to have a significant advantage over jedi. By the same token I have read BH's complaining in the past about how jedi were too "awesomely powerful" now I read about jedi complaining about how any CL80 non jedi can beat them. I think a full fledged jedi should be a bad mama jamma but just not run roughshod over the game with their sheer numbers.

Zzzzzz

[Viceroy Odantis]

in pvp:

take a normie and take a jedi with any viable templates:

put two monkeys on the keyboards, jedi wins.

I think i'm pretty damn good proof that with practice and tactics you can make them your bitch though.

Now that being said, yes they are "stronger" than most temps, but my only real complaint is..i've been playing since launch, I could have EASILY had a jedi by now either via hologrind or the new system, EASILY....but i don't want one...so i never get an extra character slot...that is the worst i think. I think the 2 year vet reward should have included an option for a non jedi to get an extra slot.

Anyway: Jedi get to be more "jack of all trades" at easier cost than anyone else. Does a master doctor heal better than a jedi? Yes...but he spends 100 SP (roughly) while a jedi usually spends enough to get one TREE of their healing prof to have more than enough healing. 1 tree of powers makes them better at stealthing than the upcoming rangers, 1 tree of defender makes them better tahn TKA at tanking. THat's my issue.

However, find a way to crush them...and you too can become the biggest "hacker" on the server.

[Ekade]

SOE may not cater to Luke, Obi-Wan, etc but thye certainly cater to the players wanting to play jedi. Look around and see how many players either have a jedi or are working on unlocking theirs? What percentage of the player population fall into that category? Whatever the number its way out of balance.

That right there is the biggest problem.. Jedi are not balanced when 80-90% of the server is one, or is working on becoming one.

You could argue numbers and abilities.. but that right there is proof enough that Jedi are broken. People resent the alpha class concept.

If jedi sucked so bad.. why are there so many of them?

I'm not mad at any of you for being Jedi, don't get me wrong. I am mad at the implementaion of the concept. I am mad that it would take me over a year of painfully tedious grinding just to reach the "goal".

To me I play the game casually not wanting it to seem like work, and thats the way folks that "grind" treat the game, like a job.

Yeah... being a jedi would be fun.. but they put it out of reach for the casual player, im my opinion. I can't do it where every single play session is 100% grind.. for months on end.

[Hashum]

Jedi aren't any better at high end content then the rest of you. We still take high dmg from high CL MOB's in those dungeon's just like you do. Believe me SOE does not cater to the Jedi.

SOE may not cater to Luke, Obi-Wan, etc but thye certainly cater to the players wanting to play jedi. Look around and see how many players either have a jedi or are working on unlocking theirs? What percentage of the player population fall into that category? Whatever the number its way out of balance. Basically SOE tried to close the barn door on jedi long after the livestock got out and eaten by voritors. Too many jedi have done to their class like expansion in baseball has done to pitching, diluted it.

To me I play the game casually not wanting it to seem like work, and thats the way folks that "grind" treat the game, like a job. Thats just not fun for me, and I play plenty of "useless" professions here, master musician and master droid engineer to name two.

To me I think jedi should be more formidable but I also feel like there are too damn many of them so if all jedi in the game got a "cost of living" increase back into their powers then the game would be wildly out of balance for what should be 99% of all player characters. the non jedi. Game balance here is something that will always seesaw but thats the nature of the game. One thing I think they can do is tweak(nerf) the professions that seem to have a significant advantage over jedi. By the same token I have read BH's complaining in the past about how jedi were too "awesomely powerful" now I read about jedi complaining about how any CL80 non jedi can beat them. I think a full fledged jedi should be a bad mama jamma but just not run roughshod over the game with their sheer numbers.

Zzzzzz

I hope you understand that I'm not complaining about BH's being too powerful. I was simply pointing out that there are ways around the supposed 1.5x stronger a Jedi is suppose to be.

As to how many people are FS or working on it, well anyone that plays the game is probably going to be FS whether it was their plan or not. It's just get a few badges and boom your FS.

On the other hand about the Jedi population, let's face it many people see Jedi as the symbol of Star Wars. Heck I know I do, and that's exactly why as a casual gamer I spent 2 years working toward that goal. Was I "grinding" sure, but I wasn't making it a job, I wasn't making it boring, I would make sure I was enjoying the game above all. And when I fell into periods when that did happen and I lost sight of the fun, luckily I had the people from this community to pull me out.

All we're saying is that as Jedi we're kind of sick of hearing everyone else complain about how "powerful" we are when that is in fact not the case. As a former BH myself I can tell you from reading their forum's most of the BH's that do complain about that are /respec BH's that don't know what they're doing and just get PO'ed because they lose a few.

Almost any combat profession combination can really be 1:1 with a Jedi as long as that is their goal. You can have Melee templates that are equal to or superior to Jedi, and you can have Ranged Professions that are equal to are greater then Jedi. And frankly Jedi healing is much less effective then Doc or CM so they have Jedi beat easy.

And on top of all the grinding and quests to unlock our Jedi and then the millions upon millions of XP needed to finish a Jedi template if you want to be even 1:1 with non-Jedi professions you have to spend fortunes and more grinding getting even decent lightsaber's.

I can safely say I've spent more on my Lightsaber then most people have spent in their entire SWG playing experience. And my saber is still some what sub-par especially when you're going up a good BH like Kirt, or Alonzo, or Novall.

I mean all of us Jedi have been on the other side of the token. We know where you're all coming from because we were there. Yet when we try to tell you or explain how it is on the other side of the fense many don't want to hear it and just want to keep this distorted picture of us in their minds and there is little or nothing we can seem to do about it.

[Hashum]

SOE may not cater to Luke, Obi-Wan, etc but thye certainly cater to the players wanting to play jedi. Look around and see how many players either have a jedi or are working on unlocking theirs? What percentage of the player population fall into that category? Whatever the number its way out of balance.

That right there is the biggest problem.. Jedi are not balanced when 80-90% of the server is one, or is working on becoming one.

You could argue numbers and abilities.. but that right there is proof enough that Jedi are broken. People resent the alpha class concept.

If jedi sucked so bad.. why are there so many of them?

I'm not mad at any of you for being Jedi, don't get me wrong. I am mad at the implementaion of the concept. I am mad that it would take me over a year of painfully tedious grinding just to reach the "goal".

To me I play the game casually not wanting it to seem like work, and thats the way folks that "grind" treat the game, like a job.

Yeah... being a jedi would be fun.. but they put it out of reach for the casual player, im my opinion. I can't do it where every single play session is 100% grind.. for months on end.

Not everyone becomes a Jedi to be uber and that's a good thing. And frankly I hate when people just say 80-90% of the population is a Jedi or is working on it.

Frankly the only thing broken about becoming a Jedi is the fact that it's almost encouraged. I mean once you finish your template in 2 days and your CL 80 what do you do with all that XP? Why not cash it in, you've got nothing better to do with it. So then people unlock their Jedi by the mere fact of just playing the game, they may have had no real desire.

And people work towards this goal many because they get FS two days after entering the game, they've seen the movie and that's what they want. They don't understand what it's like being a Jedi. Many of them don't bother reading the forums on SOE to see what the state of the profession is or have any real understanding of the game.

And as many of us can say Jedi is open to casual gamers, I'm one and I have a Jedi. And most of the people here that know me can tell you I'm usually in game about 10 hours a week so that's pretty casual as compared to some of the other people that would still consider themselves casual gamers.

And the thing to remember is frankly this is Star Wars, Jedi should have an advantage, it's not insurmountable however and that's what we have now, and frankly I think it's pretty balanced. Coming from someone that's seen both sides of the argument. And in order for it to have that kind of advantage it should be hard to get. Heck I would have loved to log on and make a Jedi right out of the box, who wouldn't. But all things considered I didn't complain (at least not much or that I can recall) about it taking two years to finally get there.

[Skorixor]

As we can see by the viewpoints in this forum, it has pretty much broken down between party lines...Jedi vs non-jedi

Jedi saying that they're not that great, and non jedi saying that jedi are too powerful or numerous...

neither side will believe the other, no matter what people say...

I suggest people stop replying because the discussion isn't going anywhere...

/exit stage right

[E-bo Obi]

Actually if you noticed my post in the other thread my opinion of jedi has nothing to do with their power. I don't think they should be in the game at all regardless of their ability.

[Isleh]

put two monkeys on the keyboards, jedi wins.

This is a game. I don't care how hard you worked to get those extra cards in you hand, it's still a game. I may try to play against a jedi for the challange but the odds are stacked against me. When all other things things are equal, skill, circumstance, I will lose more often than not. It's not a fun game.

I'm not a poker player but give me 9 cards to your 6 and I could probably do pretty well. Ask a professional gambler to play this game against another professional gambler for even stakes and I'm pretty sure his response would be less than favorable.

Lets play chess. I get 3 queens, you get 1. Come on, it fun, it's a challange, if your are on top of your game you'll beat me...

Come on, I know you're only a master marksman while I'm a master rifleman. Come on, it fun, it's a challange, if your are on top of your game you'll beat me...

More often than not, it's not fun for the underdog when the odds are stacked against them. This only proves one thing to me. Jedi is the end game for SWG.

Novice Profession (0.5) -> Elite Professions (1.0) -> Jedi (1.5)

Every single player is being funneled into Jedi.

[E-bo Obi]

Well we can look at it another way. Imagine if everyone was a Jedi. Think about how many other classes SOE DOESN'T have to work on now. They have lost so many customers maybe they are looking at easy ways to drop staff now.

[Isleh]

Well we can look at it another way. Imagine if everyone was a Jedi. Think about how many other classes SOE DOESN'T have to work on now. They have lost so many customers maybe they are looking at easy ways to drop staff now.

/nudge e-bo
/whisper Trials of Obi-Wan

[Nyvveck]

Now, let me say something here right away...I hate Jedi, and I feel they should never have been in the game.

That being said, however, I agree that in reality, Jedi are not as powerful as they seem. Sure, I'd prefer them to be out of the game...but the fact is most of the people behind the keyboard of a Jedi are, well...stupid. Most of them have simply grinded from the beginning, and have no practical experiance fighting others (I am looking at this from a PvP standpoint, as really on a PvE scale, non-Jedi and Jedi are about equal). I've fought full template Jedi in one on one duels that try to spin attack me...and that's no joke (sad as it may be). While I do not even claim to be on the level of Zo, I have fought my share of Jedi in PvP. And really, there are a few that are good...and the rest are no better than a melee template.

Hell, in one on one, Jedi can even hurt the person I'm fighting. For example, I might fight a cloaker. In group PvP, he has the power to sneak attack (though many misuse cloak as a sort of "panic button" to get away freely). However, in this one on one fight, that tree in Powers is simply a waste of his skill points.

So really, while I would LOVE for them to remove Jedi from the game, I would be content if they simply made a few changes to Jedi (or the normal professions) to sort of balance them out. Because perhaps 80-90% of the server isn't Jedi...but I'd say that 95% of PvPers are. Now, many of you are probably saying something like "But, they're Jedi! They HAVE TO BE better than you!" And sure, perhaps a bit better...but I feel I should at least stand a chance. There are quite a few fights I'll fight and I will think, "I could never have won that. That man has truely bested me." And I like to think of myself as at least about average when it comes to skill in PvP.

And I couldn't leave without saying my fill about the whole "Well, I grinded for a few months to get Jedi, so I should be more powerful than you!"...I grinded for something like two or three months to get JUST Teras Kasi Master (Back in the old days, no solo groups, no buffs, no armor...just my rock beatle in front of me and my fists as weapons. Imagine running missions out of the Dantooine Pirate Outpost all by yourself for three hours a day)...So, judging by a simple matter of time spent grinding...I should be as powerful as a Jedi! (I'm not even going to mention all the time I spent grinding to Swordsman, Fencer, and Pikeman, constantly changing my template out of boredom. I've probably mastered Swordsman about ten times, Fencer eight or so, and Pikeman somewhere around seven).

[xyryn]

Ummm, I probably don't belong in this conversation because my only opinion on Jedi is that I don't want to be one. I also am totally uninterested in PvP.

I have watched a few Jedi PvP, and listened to their conversaton. Most Jedi appear to be kids between the ages of 13 and 18. They can be easily ignored even without /addignore. I have met Jedi who RP Jedi, and they are a treat! They add to the game.

As far as the Devs fiddling with the game, that adds interest as we figure out how to use/beat/simplify per the Theory of Fun their latest modification ... whatever it is.

(I can easily see how that guy came up with the Theory. It has changed how I view the game.)