SPLIT: RPvP Discussion

[Sai'nu]

Yeap... I think the Kiva is going to give us a lecture now, Isy.

I can hear it now...

To pwn, or not to pwn... when I say we're going to fight... we're going to fight.

Joking of course. I had fun with that scene. Yes, there may be trash talk etc, etc, envolved... but, with PvP in mind... the scene Ekade is talking about actually generated a more RP atmosphere than a PvP one... though, as she said, I think everyone was ready to throw down in there.

In this case... well, I don't think we 'have' to pre-plan every RP PvP fight... it's more knowing the players your choosing to deal with that can help matters more. With everyone who was present... there weren't any OOC hard feelings no matter what would've/could've/did happen.

[Ekade]

Yeap... I think the Kiva is going to give us a lecture now, Isy.

I can hear it now...

To pwn, or not to pwn... when I say we're going to fight... we're going to fight.

Oh yeah, that's a given.

Joking of course. I had fun with that scene. Yes, there may be trash talk etc, etc, envolved... but, with PvP in mind... the scene Ekade is talking about actually generated a more RP atmosphere than a PvP one... though, as she said, I think everyone was ready to throw down in there.

Yes, Kirt always offers a good scene. It was well played across the board. We had reached an impasse. The so called "Bounty Hunter Code" has no relevance whatsover to Ekade. The Teachings of the Goddess do. It is her duty to protect those who seek shelter in the Temple walls.

In this case... well, I don't think we 'have' to pre-plan every RP PvP fight... it's more knowing the players your choosing to deal with that can help matters more. With everyone who was present... there weren't any OOC hard feelings no matter what would've/could've/did happen.

I agree.. the idea of "planned PvP" pertains to scheduled events we can all come together and play. Stuff that gives us a chance to do things with a mission-oriented feel.. but are also competetive.

[Oporim]

Soooo...

Why not just skip the "I am prepared and you are not", and just have a fair fight? It's doubtful that you can get someone to agree to accepting a disadvantage. Just RP, fight, have fun, and RP some more.

May I be allowed to drop my two cents here on the matter of engaging into a fight...

[my usual babbling on rules]
I allways like/try_to_make_things as they are in RL. Because in RL everything is allready tested daily and it works. Important rules in RL are in fact minimized to a small set. Now, when considering a game, introducing a vast ammount of rules
- makes things (problems) less transparent
- every rule introduces at least one additional chance for something to go wrong
- if rules are alienated (totally made up) to our daily set of rules we live by, they seem unnatural to us (at least me), they are hard to adapt to, and most oftenly (not so much the social rules but the game mechanic/physics rules) will fail in introducing what they were meant to (or will give an unwanted result)

Therefore, in my experience I allways try to minimize things to the smallest necessary ammount of boundry rules and try to use the RL stuff. Less rules leaves things open for a wider possible array of outcomes.


So, back to the RP and PvP.
Having to organize fights prior to the event, restricts the flow of events to a degree, not to mention it takes some time and consent. Taking into account what I said above on "less rules" I allways hold in favor "the ultimate state of social interaction" (I'm not a native English speaker, that's the best way I can put together my thoughts), that is the state where you are allowed to do almost anything. Since SWG is very limiting when it comes to picking combat (protecting the ones who don't want to), the only close to reallife situation in SWG is an all out guild war. I know this is an idea hard to swollow, I know it has been proposed allready, I know people usually don't like it, but I also know it is the closest thing a game can get to real life. And that is why I'm allways for it.

With protecting the weakest players SOE introduced combat tiers or whatever they are called now. Which in my eyes is a wrong approach. It is ok if you only consider individuals who play by themselves all the time and cannot confront a gank squad. But if you consider an evolved and mature society, like I believe the RP community is, then it becomes limiting and unnecessary. In real life you have the ability to knock down or try to kill anybody you meet on street. And you don't do it. Why? Because there is a penalty hanging over your head. As an alternative to the protectionism of the individuals, THIS is the regulating mechanism that keeps organised people from killing eachother off.

An all out guild war:
- limits you only from attacking your own guildmates (which are like your family so to say) (+)
- lets you attack everybody else (which is real and therefore good IMO) (+)
- cuts down the annoying preparations that need to be taken care of if you don't have a TEF on somebody (+)
- makes gank squads possible (-) (note 1)
- if you see a large number of red dots around you it keeps you on toes all the time (+)

note 1:
The reallife mechanism and mature society should solve it.
If you are so immature you decide to take someone, who cannt fight you equally, down WITHOUT ANY RP REASON (except maybe for RPing a serial killer) you will (or should) eventually end up with every other guilds coming after you and teaching you a lesson repeatedly (in gank squads if necessary) until your your head hurts and you learn that killing for no reason will be penalised. Think of it as a police.

And it would be so fun sitting around and RPing with all those red dots, which for being red alone keeps you and your behavior in line

Knock down that waiter, who brought you blue milk instead of maldalorian wine, properly so he hits the ground! Don't just slap him across face.
And vice versa. Nobody will talk trash to you if they know you (and other bystanders) can hit them any time.

Back to your quote Ekade. I agree. Just accept the cup that is handed to you and RP/PvP the best you can. You can never agre with someone that he is the one to fall down. So, why not just let the fate decide?

[xyryn]

I agree with you, Oporim, enough that I raised my combat level to 80...giving up most of the profession that I like best.

One of the minor reasons I did so was an encounter with an xXx. He was an 80 who challenged me to a duel simply because I was a Kreetle (I give him the benefit of the doubt, he could have been doing it simply because I was a 60) He claimed he would get extra loving from his guild IF he could beat me.

Kreetle guild is, in the main, not a combat guild. In your RL rules, we would always be killed by any passing nitwit who should be playing a first person shooter instead of SWG. That instant death would hold true for all the artisans, all the merchants, all the entertainers of master level unless they were ALWAYS accompanied by cl 80's...which ain't gonna happen.

In your RL scenario, we would all have to become cl 80 to let the fates decide. You would have nothing to spend your credits on except dropped loot and novice merchandise.

So, in the end, the RL rules wouldn't work...because we don't have the RL infrastructure to enforce the RL rules.

[Oporim]

So, in the end, the RL rules wouldn't work...because we don't have the RL infrastructure to enforce the RL rules.[/color]

I know. As I said, if the RP society is mature enough to enter a world where everyone is attackable but they do not do so just to inflict pain on another player, then it would work.

And I was assuming most of the people involved in RP (or at least those who would consent to an all out war just to enable everyone's attackability) are mature enough not to exploit it, and in fact defend the weaker. If one singleton does it the other way, everyone else should come after him until he stopps or lives a life of a fugitive. Majority CAN keep lowlifes under control. If majority is OK, having a CL80 is not a prerequisite for such a world.

On the other hand, if most are not mature enough and would start maxing out their defenses and killing eachother off the moment they meet, then God help such a society.

(may I add: it is allready present in this game, in PvE. When a low CL goes out into a wilderness, (s)he risks it if without an escort - and everyone is ok with it)

[xyryn]

I see your point, /grin. If this were a predominantly RP server, we probably could pull that off. Even the younger RPers would play "right"...I know one such who is only 12 or 13 and already does.

By the way, pre-CU, I always hunted solo on this server. After doesn't really count because I was already a CL 60, but I still hunted solo occasionally. The difference between PvE and PvP is huge. You can avoid the aggro in PvE while solo, it just takes patience and alertness. In an open ended PvP environment, you can't avoid contact with others if you do any travelling at all.

Frankly, I would welcome the set-up you describe...if MOST of the players would look out for those who are not combat monsters. I think that hunting, then shunning, those few who didn't play fair would work...but it would take a lot of coordinated effort on the part of the players to initiate such a system. That would turn the game into a job.

[E-bo Obi]

You can create as many RP servers as you want but you will never be able to make them 100% RP. There will always be some asshat that pops on because he wants to PWN and thinks it will be easier to prey on RP types. Even with RP rules servers they will be able to stay just within the rules enough to grief you. So even though it may work for some people, you will still have PK's out the ass.

[Sai'nu]

Well, the system 'does' work as described.... but only for the people participating in it. In that way we 'could' put something like this into affect for 'this' community. That doesn't mean 'everyone' here would have to participate. But as long as we knew the general idea or 'rules' of the set up for the game we wouldn't have too many problems in picking out the trouble makers in the system and then enforcing them... aka... usually just a 'kick' from the game till the scenario was over.

I for one have gotten into this habit... I 'do not' like PvP; and, thus, only use the duel system. However, I support this idea because some/most of you want it. You should be able to have it without any hassles. Just need to set it up... start small and try to make it into something bigger. If at first it fails... try, try, try again.

[toront]

Well, the system 'does' work as described.... but only for the people participating in it. In that way we 'could' put something like this into affect for 'this' community. That doesn't mean 'everyone' here would have to participate. But as long as we knew the general idea or 'rules' of the set up for the game we wouldn't have too many problems in picking out the trouble makers in the system and then enforcing them... aka... usually just a 'kick' from the game till the scenario was over.

I for one have gotten into this habit... I 'do not' like PvP; and, thus, only use the duel system. However, I support this idea because some/most of you want it. You should be able to have it without any hassles. Just need to set it up... start small and try to make it into something bigger. If at first it fails... try, try, try again.

Somebody told me once about a set of roleplayers in SWG that had all the recognized RP guilds constantly at war with each other. The rules were set in stone and harsh punishments/blacklisting for any members that felt the need to go on a rampage with no RP to back it up. I can't remember if it was another server or if it was the set of German RP guilds on Gorath.

Obviously, the first week of the system would be tricky, just getting every single person to acknowledge "rules of engagement" would be a task. Then there's always the accidents bound to happen, like I'm PvPing in Coronet and in the blob of red I area attack a crafter that just landed there.

Then you have to look at whether our community can completely be cut down to a list of guilds. Players at any of the events that are not in the core SWGTales guilds: KRETL, TTF, MERCS, MidCo, Templ, etc. would still be immune and able to talk smack, and quite frankly, those tend to be the problem cases much more than members of the guilds just listed.

Perhaps the more purely combat oriented guilds could work out a rules of engagement and do this, just for some interesting interaction. I wouldn't expect KRETL to need to war everyone

It can be done, with a lot of communication, maturity and good people. Weeding out bad apples from the guilds would be the most difficult part, but with the right leaders, it wouldn't take long.

[Ekade]

Somebody told me once about a set of roleplayers in SWG that had all the recognized RP guilds constantly at war with each other. The rules were set in stone and harsh punishments/blacklisting for any members that felt the need to go on a rampage with no RP to back it up. I can't remember if it was another server or if it was the set of German RP guilds on Gorath.

Obviously, the first week of the system would be tricky, just getting every single person to acknowledge "rules of engagement" would be a task. Then there's always the accidents bound to happen, like I'm PvPing in Coronet and in the blob of red I area attack a crafter that just landed there.

Then you have to look at whether our community can completely be cut down to a list of guilds. Players at any of the events that are not in the core SWGTales guilds: KRETL, TTF, MERCS, MidCo, Templ, etc. would still be immune and able to talk smack, and quite frankly, those tend to be the problem cases much more than members of the guilds just listed.

Perhaps the more purely combat oriented guilds could work out a rules of engagement and do this, just for some interesting interaction. I wouldn't expect KRETL to need to war everyone

It can be done, with a lot of communication, maturity and good people. Weeding out bad apples from the guilds would be the most difficult part, but with the right leaders, it wouldn't take long.

Yes, this is how they do it on Chimaera. I tried to sell Griggs on this concept and I think he actually tried it before throwing in the towell.

But yes, this *can* work with mature players. The guildwar mechanism is perfect because it gives us control. If one guild is not following the rules, they don't get to participate. If one member of a guild is griefing, they can get the boot.

As a roleplayer, I would like to have some context around a guildwar. Meaning.. why would I just walk up and start wtfpwning Zo? Some background would actually provide some structure for rules of engagement.

The other option is to make it RP lite and just have it be a game. We all guildwar for a week. Your guild get's points for killing guild leaders. At the end of the week, the team with the most points wins. Each guild leader will need to be "in the wild" for X hours that week. Or something like that.

Or just have no game and enjoy senseless slaughter.

Or have it be team-based.. 2 small guilds can war a larger guild. Or have it be RP team based.. so people could hire merceneries to be on their side.

[Sai'nu]

*grins* I do hope temporary guild leaves are acceptable in participating in this. Sai'nu has 'no' desire to PvP... at all. Only when I 'have' to in RP encounters. I go Combatant... not SF. Personal choice.

That might be a good option to ask for in Guild Wars to the Devs on Guild Halls... ability for some guild members to 'not' particpate in the war... or so they can 'drop out' as their killed.

[Ekade]

*grins* I do hope temporary guild leaves are acceptable in participating in this. Sai'nu has 'no' desire to PvP... at all. Only when I 'have' to in RP encounters. I go Combatant... not SF. Personal choice.

That might be a good option to ask for in Guild Wars to the Devs on Guild Halls... ability for some guild members to 'not' particpate in the war... or so they can 'drop out' as their killed.

Yes, that option would be attractive for the people who do not desire PvP to opt out.

PvP is a lot of fun.. you just have to be okay with losing on occasion. Sometimes the situation is just not in your favor.

[Sai'nu]

I don't want to start an argument for a split thread... but there really is 'no' point to it in SWG. Planetary control simply translates into who is doing the most killing to change the npc spawns in cities. If there was a 'point' to it... I might be more opt to do it. PvP=Senselessness for me. Rating... doesn't mean anything unless it gives you some sort of stat bonus or factional advantage... gah... I'm derailing here, sorry. Just wanted to speak for the Non-PvPers.

[toront]

I don't want to start an argument for a split thread... but there really is 'no' point to it in SWG. Planetary control simply translates into who is doing the most killing to change the npc spawns in cities. If there was a 'point' to it... I might be more opt to do it. PvP=Senselessness for me. Rating... doesn't mean anything unless it gives you some sort of stat bonus or factional advantage... gah... I'm derailing here, sorry. Just wanted to speak for the Non-PvPers.

It's fun, that's why I do it. After slugging through the artificial intelligence of countless NPCs and MOBs, it's actually challenging to fight someone that has a brain. I'm not going to say winning isn't a big part of it, because no one likes to lose, but I relate it to how I play sports. The 'playing' of the game is where the fun is, winning is the bonus.

I go off PvP every now and then just because it gets tiring in itself, but I find it more invigorating and fun then most other aspects of this game.

[Ekade]

I don't want to start an argument for a split thread... but there really is 'no' point to it in SWG. Planetary control simply translates into who is doing the most killing to change the npc spawns in cities. If there was a 'point' to it... I might be more opt to do it. PvP=Senselessness for me. Rating... doesn't mean anything unless it gives you some sort of stat bonus or factional advantage... gah... I'm derailing here, sorry. Just wanted to speak for the Non-PvPers.

As roleplayers, it is our job to make a point to it. This is why we invent stories with a conflict element.