Since there's a lot of sh!@ talking going on...

Hashum wrote:
Ekade wrote: I guess I should ask.. What is particularly hard about PvP in SWG?
The variables is what makes it hard. There are so many possible template combinations that you can't trust what you see on the screen.
True. But if you limit your thinking to what your options are, you have less to worry about. Why worry about what you cannot control? Focus on what you can control.
Not only that but then there is an assortment of modifier's that are usable outside of those your template may provide. (food, drink, spices, buffs, etc.) Each having varried effects and filling ratio's that make balancing the correct food bonus to their filling. And finding a ratio between food and drink.
Yes, that alone is what makes SWG much more complex than WoW.

Food/Filling is challenging, I will give you that. However, with experience and practice it becomes less so. If I were to ask Zo if he felt food/filling was challenging, he would probably tell me no (and then call me a nub).
Then once that's done you have further "special" modifiers for specific situations such as fighting a MCM and needing food/drink or skills to counter their attacks which are different from those of a typical combat template which is focused on pure damage.
Aye.. but with practice and preparation, your typical gamer can get used to this as well.
Next you have your defensive and offensive abilities that have to be calculated based on their rate of consumption of your "bars" while still anticipating what the actions of your foe could impact those.
For me, this is a "feel" thing. Practice shows you how fast someone can make your bars move. For example, Hashum and Nyveck can make my health bar move pretty fast. As such, I know I have to keep it topped off.

Combo's obviously you need to time your attacks and use a series of attacks that will benefit you most in the given situation. If in a long battle your most powerful attacks may drain your action or mind so heavily that it will in fact criple you instead of your enemy so you must conserve your action by using timely damaging combo's that are less costly.
Definately! I call this manuvering an opponent into your kill zone. :wink:

Combo's are where you do your big dmg and really sent your opponent reeling.

State's, when to apply them, when not to apply them. Especially KD and blind.
Aye, KD is an art that I am just beginning to appreciate. You really need to spend this ability wisely. Some people do it as often as they can, and there is some merit in that. My recent thinkig on this is that you want you get certain variables aligned properly to make maximum use of this ability.
There's just so many variables in each fight that is what makes PvP hard in SWG. Preperation helps this and the fact that often times people will focus on proven successful templates instead of testing new unproven templates does give you some benefit in preperation but you can just never know.
Yes and no. I guess I like to simplify the equation and just focus on what I can control.
I won't even get into the variables with equipment and how that can impact these situations.
*nods* In the end, you can't do anything about your opponents gear other than be aware of it.
Ekade
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I did this with one of my Ahazi characters... MTK all the melee deffense lines... only, no Doc, just all out Melee. At least in PvE it was insanely easy to just kind of sit there and have same lvl things hit you for peanuts, if any damage, while pretty well stomping them in the ground. Not sure how well it applies to PvP... but I can at least back up that that part of that particular template combo is pretty dang mean.

Enter the ranged combatant.... bye bye melee stacker.

It's a complicated thing... this... pwning in PvP. At least here it is. Though after one PvP class... I think the operative word is... interesting.
Sai'nu
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Sai'nu wrote:Enter the ranged combatant.... bye bye melee stacker.
Its not that hard, I used to bulls-eye womp rats with my T16 back home.. er wait.

Anyway you can hit ranged very hard easily. They are weighed down due to weapons and armor and therefore can't usually move fast enough to get away. I always used to say, "You'll win as long as I don't catch you."

Jabe
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Jabe Adaks wrote:Combat starts with a template that can be bazillion more combinations than WoW. But other than that the challenge of PvP in SWG is a lot of preparation, e.g. knowing game mechanics, food, armor, weapons and knowing the same about your potential enemies.
The combinations are meaningless.

What is meaningful are the abilities. Can he stun me? Root me? Mez, do big dmg, etc.?

What is also meaningful are the numbers. How hard does he hit me? How often does he hit me? How hard can I hit him?

There's a lot more places to make potential mistakes that will cause you to get pwned. The fact that roles are less defined also makes it harder because you have to anticipate if someone who is tanking (for example) is going to role-shift by pulling out a carbine and kiting. If they do you have to be ready to respond to it.
Yeah, somone can't hover their mouse over you and see your class like they can in WoW.

Some classes allow you to absorb mistakes more than others. A glass cannon cannot afford a mistake. A tank usually can.

Saying PvP is "easy" leaves the impression that you are saying it is easy to win. Its not as easy to win for all templates in the game. Just as its not so easy to race a corvette in a pickup truck. Not to mention saying its easy, in a way, is like saying everyone else sucks - which would not be true either.
Ahhh.. no, it is not necessarily easy to win. I am saying it is easy to learn how to drive your toon to near their full potential.

I guess I am saying it is easy because I want people to think it is easy. It is meant to encourage people not to limit their thinking or be intimidated by anyone. Get comfortable with it and enjoy it. :D

People get pissed at me in group grind from time to time because I will AoE the lair even if we're down to 4 people. They want the easy XP, I want the challenge (at least on occasion). When we pwn about 8-10 rontos with a group of 4 its a pretty cool feeling when the last one falls.
You are sexy when you talk hardcore like that. :wink:
I guess you need to qualify "easy". Personally I'd rather play hard, barely win or likely lose than to go in knowing I'll likely win. Out of respect for other people who fight well regardless of the effectiveness of their current template - you'll never hear me call it easy.
Gotcha. I never once meant to imply that anyone is teh suck.

If I beat anyone it is because 1) I am getting very comfortable at driving my toon, 2) my template/gear may just compare favorably to theirs, 3) and/or they made a mistake and I made them pay.

That aside, the biggest variable in combat is "Combos", like Hashum mentioned. I like to call this a "bag of tricks". These are things that more experienced players have invented or discovered that give them an edge in combat.
Ekade
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Ekade sorry not going to quote as there's just so much text I don't want to fill the page with it.

All I'm saying is that PvP in involved which typically equates to a certain level of difficulty. As always certain aspects of that can become second nature and make the process easier yes. However PvP in general is not easy.

At least not if you want to be good at it, think back to when you were just starting to think of changing your template and how much there was to learn in regards to professions. Equipment, templates, etc.

So yes it gets easier, I agree, and you can learn to simplify, but it requires work which is hard. So PvP requires Work which can be equated to hard to make it easy.

and Batty no that Melee defense does not typically equate to the same in PvP. I get hit for about 70-100dmg in PvE from CL 82 mobs. Ekade can whack me for 700dmg and I can have 700-800 Melee Defense with Aura on, and 7000 armor (70 innate armor equates to 7000 armor rating or about 54% I believe)

And the reason for the ranged combatant bye bye is that all that defense is focused on melee so you have no protection from ranged attacks meaning with their high accuracy and your low defense you get a double wammy of getting hit all the time and getting hit hard. This is where it would be benefical to use actual armor and not Innate armor as you can get higher ranged defense from crafted armor then the 6000 innate armor from TKM.
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Hashum
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Jabe Adaks wrote:
Sai'nu wrote:Enter the ranged combatant.... bye bye melee stacker.
Its not that hard, I used to bulls-eye womp rats with my T16 back home.. er wait.

Anyway you can hit ranged very hard easily. They are weighed down due to weapons and armor and therefore can't usually move fast enough to get away. I always used to say, "You'll win as long as I don't catch you."

Jabe
And completing our argument why it 'is' harder than in other games... because my example is not always true! Thanks for the reply, Jabe.

Ekade, just because you find it easy... doesn't mean others do too. There are always conditions. C'mon, ya need the Non-Pvper to explain this? :cool:
Sai'nu
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Ekade wrote:I guess I should ask.. What is particularly hard about PvP in SWG?
I guess, since SWG is less rock-paper-scissors then WoW, it opens up a wider variety of conflicts.

Master Smuggler/Rifleman
Master Smuggler/Pistoleer
Master Smuggler/Carbineer
Master Smuggler/BH
Master Smuggler/TKA
etc. etc. etc.

will all play differently. Some better then others but all with slight differances.

*reads up*
Isleh
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Sai'nu wrote: Ekade, just because you find it easy... doesn't mean others do too. There are always conditions. C'mon, ya need the Non-Pvper to explain this? :cool:
Now that is just plain untrue. It may come easier to Ekade but it's not a matter of other's may not find it easy, it's more that others don't want to learn.

That statement in my opinion is merely a crutch. believe me, I am no PvP God by any stretch of the imagination, but even through simple RP interactions with people I've been able to help them and see their PvP viability increase 10x in a very short period of time without them even knowing how much better they were getting.

No I refuse to accept that statement. It maybe easier for someone to get the proper equipment etc. but it is not easier for anyone to learn how to PvP then it is for anyone else. Unless you only have one arm you can learn just as easily as anyone else if you wish to devote the same amount of time and effort into learning it.
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Jabe Adaks wrote: People get pissed at me in group grind from time to time because I will AoE the lair even if we're down to 4 people. They want the easy XP, I want the challenge (at least on occasion). When we pwn about 8-10 rontos with a group of 4 its a pretty cool feeling when the last one falls.
Jabe
Now you're talking, that's the Jabe I love to hear talk. We need to spin sometime. I hate waiting for a group of eight (and I usually hate joining groups I prefer to start my own) so I'll get four-five people (I'm too lazy and impatient to weight for 8 people to join) and start. They usually do get pissed but one no one dies they quickly learn to shut their mouth.

Damn see now I'm in the mood for some serious pwn and I can't log on tonight!
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Speaking to Hash's last post, there was a question I had that I forgot to ask during our last meeting. In terms of ranged defense, other than your innate armor, Pica Thundercloud, and PSGs, is Valor worth using?

I haven't had the opportunity to test it so I'm just wondering if it's like aura except for ranged defense or if it is more like force shield where you lose force everytime it absorbs damage?

Just wondering whether or not I should bother maco'ing it like I do aura and/or if it is even worth using against a BH.
Shensen
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Jabe Adaks wrote:
Sai'nu wrote:Enter the ranged combatant.... bye bye melee stacker.
Its not that hard, I used to bulls-eye womp rats with my T16 back home.. er wait.

Anyway you can hit ranged very hard easily. They are weighed down due to weapons and armor and therefore can't usually move fast enough to get away. I always used to say, "You'll win as long as I don't catch you."

Jabe
That and you can use line of sight.
Isleh
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Easy is also partially comfort zone. Since my template change I don't know how to PvP Jabe, thats just a plain fact. I plan on learning and I want to get back in the action. I am just worried its going to take another year before I got a PvP worthy LS.

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Shensen wrote:Speaking to Hash's last post, there was a question I had that I forgot to ask during our last meeting. In terms of ranged defense, other than your innate armor, Pica Thundercloud, and PSGs, is Valor worth using?

I haven't had the opportunity to test it so I'm just wondering if it's like aura except for ranged defense or if it is more like force shield where you lose force everytime it absorbs damage?

Just wondering whether or not I should bother maco'ing it like I do aura and/or if it is even worth using against a BH.
Don't macro. You'll block a lot of shots if you use it but there's a massive damage reduction. I throw it up if I'm rooted because by the time the root is up the valor is almost over and by the time I catch up it's usually off. This prevents me from getting kited quite as badly.
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I hear that Jabe. Wondering the same thing myself.

As for spin groups, I'd much rather have 4 or 5 people I know. Had a group like that a few nights ago and we did insanely well. Not to mention I hate the way those groups always fall apart and you constantly have to go out and refill em. Sometimes I just wish I could be selfish enough to yell "4 spots in spin groups - if you won't be playing for 3 hours don't apply", but alas I'm not quite that heartless.
Shensen
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Hashum wrote:
Now that is just plain untrue. It may come easier to Ekade but it's not a matter of other's may not find it easy, it's more that others don't want to learn.

Actually I think you hit the nail on the head.

pwn = learn


And guess what? the people around here that have been accused of being "teh pwn" are the most helpful people you will find. :wink:

I'm actually tempted to tell you all how to beat me.. but I have been a dancer for 2+ years and I still have a lot of frustration to work out. So crai more until you figure it out! :wink:
Ekade
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