The Jedi vs BH Debate

[Hashum]

Honestly I feel there should be no alpha classes. Every combatant should feel like they have a chance to make a contribution and not get absolutely wtfpwned by someone who simply has more time to grind than they do.

Everyone should be subject to some sort of "reputation" rating based on PvP success. Faction ranks and rewards should be given based on this rating.

The point is that you want to encourage people to PvP. This is done by providing incentives, and also a fun an fair environment in which to do so. Right now it sounds like the PvP is only fun and fair to the Alpha Class. That is not a good thing at all.

I agree.

The anchorhead battle I played in was *not* fun. Take a level 53 and duel an level 80 over and over. Do you think it will be fun for the level 53?

53 x 1.5 = 80 (79.5)

Sure you may get the ocassional good fight. Some people like it when the odds are stacked against them. My advice is that maybe a trip to Los Vagas is in order for them.

Also, If you isolate the alpha profession from the rest of the game then why oh why were they ever added in the first place?

Isolating Jedi is not on SOE's agenda. Look at this latest patch and the fact that jedi don't gain visibility from group members. I will stick with my guns and say that Jedi will not be removed from the GCW and that SOE will move to actually intergrate Jedi Players into more of the game.

Jedi are in the game because Jedi=Star Wars to many people. It's the ultimate immersion for many players, the chance to be what you dreamd of as a kid. I'm sorry but it wouldn't be Star Wars without Jedi and SOE knows that.

Again you reference this one PvP battle that was *not* fun as a CL 53 fighting CL 80's well of course it's not going to be a lot of fun, especially if you're not in a group. Just like in every aspect of SWG you have to know your role. As a CL 53 you wouldn't attack a spawn of CL 83 Ancient Rancor's or you'd keep dying just like you did in PvP and that wouldn't be fun. The bottom line is that many players want to have their cake and eat it to. Oh I want to participate in this function of the game, and this one, and this one and I want to be great in all of them. And that's the problem.

If you want to enjoy PvP then you have to be completely devoted to combat that's pretty much a given, you're going to need to be CL 80 or at least have a very well organized group that knows what they're doing. I've not been huge in PvP in my stay in SWG, and that's because I haven't wanted to invest the money in having the top of the line weapons, stores of food and everything to make it enjoyable. And I knew to be able to stand a chance i would have to commit myself to doing those things.

But when I do PvP I know I'm going to die a lot, and it's knowing my limits that lets me have fun. I'm prepared to die frequently as a Jedi or in PvP so I'm not going to get ticked when I lose 250k from a BH because that's the name of the game. Just like I didn't get pissed when I die 15 times in PvP battles with my old friends.

The only reason this visability change in publish 20 is coming out is because they want Jedi to be able to participate in the game, and frankly the CU's purpose was to eliminate a lot of Solo PvE. This will allow Jedi to participate in this as part of a group without having to suffer for it. Frankly I think a Master/Padawan relationship would have been better, it gives us some of that without going so wide spread as to let us hunt with 8 people but either way. Most high end content area's require at least 2 groups and so the Jedi will still get visibility from the other 8.

And I'm almost 100% sure when the FRS comes back out Jedi will select a Light or Dark faction and not Rebel/Imperial. They may not be completely removed from the GCW but you will see much less of them if this is the case. They're not being removed from anything by doing so, they're simply giving them something that fits better into the Star Wars Universe. And that's what the Jedi want. Their own "hidden" war, Jedi vs. Sith. The way it's been for 15,000 years or so in the Star Wars universe.

[Hashum]

And no offense but basing your opinion off one instance of a PvP battle in one city does not give your opinion much support.

Not just one but the combination of other's actions and that.

I'm aware of Griggs attempts to establish guilds with no Jedi but that's to better simulate immersion or a fair playing field to them because the game doesn't currently allow that because of Jedi.

Doesn't that validate my opinion?

If there are other actions that your using to base your opinion off of besides this one PvP fight and Griggs and certain guilds recruiting only non-Jedi then please include them, I can't comment on them without knowing them.

and in the second part Griggs wants a fair field of no Jedi and that's because Jedi weren't a part of the GCW battles for the most part (you could call Luke a Jedi or Vader so allow for some give and take there). But a GCW battlefield can be fair when all parties are agreed. That's all Griggs is trying to do find people that will help further that mission.

The game allows for Jedi to be a part of that so if you want a fair fight without Jedi both sides have to be involved. There could just as easily be a fair fight with Jedi but it feels less like star wars. So no I don't think it validates your point directly. In certain situations I'm sure that it does, but in others it does not, it depends on what pieces you choose to accept, and by accepting some you leave out others so you can't really have an absolute answer.

Which goes back to just make everyones life easier and give Jedi their own factions as they request making Griggs job of getting the GCW on it's feet much easier, making those non-Jedi that want to PvP without Jedi what they want, and give Jedi what they want by getting them out of the GCW.

[Isleh]

Listen.. after the last fiasco, I don't want another flame war and thread locked. I will sum up my opinions and that's it.

# 1 - There should be no Alpha class/profession
It creates an environment conducive to an elitist atmosphere and takes away from the diversity from the game. Not because there is a lack of diversity in the game but because people are people and will be drawn to what the alpha profession offers.

#2 - Jedi are not going away
I don't think I need to explain why.

#3 - Jedi Players will never accept being on equal terms as level 80s
I'm not saying they should either. There is an image to maintain based on the setting.

#4 - #2 & #3 means that #1 will never happen.

#5 - I think isolating Jedi from the rest of the game is a mistake
After all, this is the group of players that spends the most time *in* the game.

#6 - More alpha professions are better
People who do spend the time and effort are still rewarded. You again create diversity and more content with offering more rather than sequestering away the Jedi players.

[Hashum]

Listen.. after the last fiasco, I don't want another flame war and thread locked. I will sum up my opinions and that's it.

# 1 - There should be no Alpha class/profession
It creates an environment conducive to an elitist atmosphere and takes away from the diversity from the game. Not because there is a lack of diversity in the game but because people are people and will be drawn to what the alpha profession offers.

#2 - Jedi are not going away
I don't think I need to explain why.

#3 - Jedi Players will never accept being on equal terms as level 80s
I'm not saying they should either. There is an image to maintain based on the setting.

#4 - #2 & #3 means that #1 will never happen.

#5 - I think isolating Jedi from the rest of the game is a mistake
After all, this is the group of players that spends the most time *in* the game.

#6 - More alpha professions are better
People who do spend the time and effort are still rewarded. You again create diversity and more content with offering more rather than sequestering away the Jedi players.

#1 There is an alpha class in every game, it's never going to change and every game after this will also have a form of alpha class.

#2 You're correct

#3 You're correct

#4 You're correct

#5 I'm in no way suggesting Jedi should be isolated from the rest of the game merely the GCW. And Jedi are not necessary those that spend the most time in game. Believe me I do not spend much time in game at all, nor have I ever really. Unless 10 hours a week is a lot.

#6 I disagree, more alpha classes will just further compound the problem that you already believe exsists. Only instead of seeing a population of 5% Jedi on a server that may dominate the current GCW you'll have a 100% population base that would be 5% Jedi 50% BH and probably 45% smuggler give or take. Losing the current individuality.

Frankly Rifleman is currently one of the most powerful professions in the game, and can take out almost any profession including Jedi in the game. Jedi for the most part have to be within 5m of their target. Or if it's a powers Jedi 32m. almost any ranged profession can attack from 50-60m out effectively limiting the Jedi's chance to attack, especially with the roots and snares of the ranged professions.

Jedi are the alpha class however it's not so much that they dominate every encounter. They just require more thought before hand to beat. But they're just as vulnerable as any other profession. If as you said this is suppose to be a *group* game then the preceived alpha rating of Jedi quickly decreases because there are far more players that are not Jedi then there are Jedi. So as you have larger groups of Non-Jedi the 1.5x of a single Jedi in another group can quickly be over turned. The only time this is a real issue is when you have 15 Jedi on both sides of the battle field (or on one side).

[DuoXDuoX]

Jedi takes around 3 and a half months to get then around 1-2 months to get full template.

I grinded my alt up to level 80 melee in 2 days and i was slacking.
I could master every combat based professtion in the game in a month.
So why should something so easy to grind be as strong as jedi which would take 4 months minimum.

[Isleh]

#6 I disagree, more alpha classes will just further compound the problem that you already believe exsists. Only instead of seeing a population of 5% Jedi on a server that may dominate the current GCW you'll have a 100% population base that would be 5% Jedi 50% BH and probably 45% smuggler give or take. Losing the current individuality.

What makes you think that the 95% of the population, who are not willing to grind out Jedi, will suddenly want to grind out an alpha Smuggler or BH?

I need to clarify where I'm going with this.

I never said a alpha BH or smuggler would be any easier to get then Jedi. I thought it was implied that it was something more than just a normal Master BH and Master Smuggler by using the term "alpha" to name them.

I never said the regular professions for BH and Smuggler would go away. Just add something that would allow them to go beyond master.

[Isleh]

#6 I disagree, more alpha classes will just further compound the problem that you already believe exsists. Only instead of seeing a population of 5% Jedi on a server that may dominate the current GCW you'll have a 100% population base that would be 5% Jedi 50% BH and probably 45% smuggler give or take. Losing the current individuality.

What makes you think that the 95% of the population, who are not willing to grind out Jedi, will suddenly want to grind out an alpha Smuggler or BH?

I need to clarify where I'm going with this.

I never said a alpha BH or smuggler would be any easier to get then Jedi. I thought it was implied that it was something more than just a normal Master BH and Master Smuggler by using the term "alpha" to name them.

I never said the regular professions for BH and Smuggler would go away. Just add something that would allow them to go beyond master.

If you take this and read back to what I was suggesting, I think it would make more sense to what I was trying to say.

[Ka'eri]

The thing that irks me the most is that as of right now, A jedi has nothing to gain for killing a bh (FRS isnt' in atm), and yet a BH has hardly nothing to lose. yeah yeah I know they loose the time hunting and the droids and possible wounds and decay (if they are silly bh's)

Basicly there isn't much of a risk a BH has compared what a jedi risks (xp loss) I'm not sayin the rist should be equal. But there should be some risk involved.

jedi shouldn't get any reward for killing a bh...why?

anyone can be a BH, not everyone can be a jedi

being a jedi IS the reward

I 100% agree with you being jedi is the reward, not to mention staying alive after a little longer as well. And if the the new FRS system is similar to the old one, those jedi that are in it, do get something from MBH kills. however, we don't know anything about it yet so it's too early to talk about that

However I ment to stress that there is no real risk if A BH losses praticly nothing. A bh shouldn't loss anything equalivent to what a jedi loses, yet they should gain more than just xp and $$$

Like I said I like prefer a good risk/reward system like the with reputation suggestion.

Honestly i would love to have a BH alt if they implemented something like this and with other player bounties

And Isleh, I agree with all your points and like #6.

Ka'eri

[Damanoth]

The fact simply is The DEV's of SOE only to cater to Jedi for two simple reasons to Dev's they think Jedi is somehting everyone wants to be in theory the game is designed to for everyone to become Jedi. Bu the simple fact is there is millions of Star Wars Fans out there. Many Don't really like Jedi/Sith. Many like Star Wars for the Stormtroopers, Space Dogfights, Fets, the Solo's, the characters who's skill, cunningnd, lead themselves to victory prowes not by simple force. Yes Alpha classes can lead to imbalance and this game has been out for a long time and the DEV's had only made it easy to unlock. And many have strong feeling against Jedi and want some for a elite, alpha, hero class. Personnallly I dont care if they are a slighty worse as logn as the grind isnt as bad than a Jedi since it would stick to lore but should be able to compete and are capable of killing a full template. I for one believ SOE only caters to 1 Jedi because most devs in many of thiere interviews belive Jedi would be the core of the game eventually. The simple don't lusten to many outcries they have completly steered the other way than the movies. In SWG its turing into another Sith War wereas in the book very few Jedi survived and were in hiding. They claim to have vader go about and kill people if tey star using force and or saber in towns but THere ARE TOO MANY JEDI. But unless teh Jedi cry out aginst SOE spoonfeeding them nothing will change and Jedi will become more and more common. I just wonder what this game is really turining into were will ti be in another two years.....Something to think about...


***New BH system to sooo screwed up on soo many levels Jedi claim iit weeds out bad bh's and elminates ganking well. To all jedi that say that if i was a My Bh had avoid incap and your defenses you'd be dead for sure..Jedi saying BH's have no skill makes me sick...**

[Hashum]

#6 I disagree, more alpha classes will just further compound the problem that you already believe exsists. Only instead of seeing a population of 5% Jedi on a server that may dominate the current GCW you'll have a 100% population base that would be 5% Jedi 50% BH and probably 45% smuggler give or take. Losing the current individuality.

What makes you think that the 95% of the population, who are not willing to grind out Jedi, will suddenly want to grind out an alpha Smuggler or BH?

I need to clarify where I'm going with this.

I never said a alpha BH or smuggler would be any easier to get then Jedi. I thought it was implied that it was something more than just a normal Master BH and Master Smuggler by using the term "alpha" to name them.

I never said the regular professions for BH and Smuggler would go away. Just add something that would allow them to go beyond master.

If you take this and read back to what I was suggesting, I think it would make more sense to what I was trying to say.

No I understand that your idea for other alpha classes would require more work then the regular profession. However you can grind MBH in a matter of days or a week tops. That would then make you eligible for the alpha class. Even if they used a quest or prestige system that required longer grinding then a normal profession it would still be much quicker then Jedi.

By making another alpha profession easier to get then Jedi all the people that wanted to be Uber but don't want to invest the time or work in getting a Jedi now have a much easier option with similar rewards as a much longer and harder grind. I mean technically to even qualify for Jedi you have to complete several long quests including mastering a normal elite profession I believe. And then you have to deal with the FS XP conversion rates. And minimal Jedi XP after that.

So you're just giving people an easier option so yes I do believe 95% of the people would flood to those easier alpha proefssions. What would be the point of being a rifleman? Or a Pistoleer? It would only compound the imbalance not help resolve it.

[Zaren Sin]

I haven't read each and every post in he thread, so I apolopgize if I'm repeating other's thoughts and opinions.

One of the biggest mistakes the Devs made was Publish 9 which created the Village and the Jedi fiasco. It made attaining Jedi way too easy. I used to want to play a Jedi when it was dangerous and challenging to do so. That is what made Jedi attractive to me, but I guess that doesn't make me the average player of SWG. The average person wants things the easy way, they don't want to have to work for it.

Jedi was made made an alpha class because it was supposed to be both rare and a challenge, but it is no longer either of these things. We went from perma deaths and saber TEF's to only losing XP when killed by a BH. I call that a significant reduction of risk.

The risk and challenge, also the rarity, were the justification of the reward of Jedi being stronger than normal profs, not the length of the grind. I disagree with anyone who says that the length of the grind should be justification of the reward. I can remember way back before there were Jedi, and the majority of BH's felt we should be stronger than any other prof based on the fact of our gring and skill point cost, 217 points total(Master Scout/Marskman). Players and devs quickly shot that thought down.

Even with the reduced challenge of Jedi, most of the Jedi players still want XP loss gone from the game, but then what justification will Jedi have for being 1.5 times stronger than a normal profession? They'll have none. IMO, I think the Devs are slowly realizing that an alpha class is a mistake, but in true SOE dev fashion, they are slow to admit fault. I don't think their will be anymore alpha profs, such as analpha BH ect ect, but I do think Jedi will be slowly brought in line with other profs. I feel Jedi will be equal to every other elite combat prof by the end of the year. I get this feeling from talking to guildies that are Jedi and from some of the nerf/fixes that Jedi are getting each publish.

If they are brought in-line then I feel there should be no xp loss, and that they'll accumulate xp at the same rate as other profs. By this time, I hope there'll be Smuggler missions, as well as, some of the other player missions the Devs have talked about for BH.

One last thought, from what I've read of how the new missions will work is simply idiotic. BH's will not be given a name at all during the mission, and won't find out who they ae after till they get to the wp and target the Jedi. This is a prof I do care alot about. I've been a MBH since Sept/Oct 2003, and I won't be dropping BH because it would destroy 2+ years of RP for Zaren.

[Novall]

I haven't read each and every post in he thread, so I apolopgize if I'm repeating other's thoughts and opinions.

One of the biggest mistakes the Devs made was Publish 9 which created the Village and the Jedi fiasco. It made attaining Jedi way too easy. I used to want to play a Jedi when it was dangerous and challenging to do so. That is what made Jedi attractive to me, but I guess that doesn't make me the average player of SWG. The average person wants things the easy way, they don't want to have to work for it.

Jedi was made made an alpha class because it was supposed to be both rare and a challenge, but it is no longer either of these things. We went from perma deaths and saber TEF's to only losing XP when killed by a BH. I call that a significant reduction of risk.

The risk and challenge, also the rarity, were the justification of the reward of Jedi being stronger than normal profs, not the length of the grind. I disagree with anyone who says that the length of the grind should be justification of the reward. I can remember way back before there were Jedi, and the majority of BH's felt we should be stronger than any other prof based on the fact of our gring and skill point cost, 217 points total(Master Scout/Marskman). Players and devs quickly shot that thought down.

Even with the reduced challenge of Jedi, most of the Jedi players still want XP loss gone from the game, but then what justification will Jedi have for being 1.5 times stronger than a normal profession? They'll have none. IMO, I think the Devs are slowly realizing that an alpha class is a mistake, but in true SOE dev fashion, they are slow to admit fault. I don't think their will be anymore alpha profs, such as analpha BH ect ect, but I do think Jedi will be slowly brought in line with other profs. I feel Jedi will be equal to every other elite combat prof by the end of the year. I get this feeling from talking to guildies that are Jedi and from some of the nerf/fixes that Jedi are getting each publish.

If they are brought in-line then I feel there should be no xp loss, and that they'll accumulate xp at the same rate as other profs. By this time, I hope there'll be Smuggler missions, as well as, some of the other player missions the Devs have talked about for BH.

One last thought, from what I've read of how the new missions will work is simply idiotic. BH's will not be given a name at all during the mission, and won't find out who they ae after till they get to the wp and target the Jedi. This is a prof I do care alot about. I've been a MBH since Sept/Oct 2003, and I won't be dropping BH because it would destroy 2+ years of RP for Zaren.

The last 3 paragraphs I feel will be coming in the newr future. If they do remove Jedi XP loss, then theres no reason to only have jedi as player bounties.

[Hashum]

I haven't read each and every post in he thread, so I apolopgize if I'm repeating other's thoughts and opinions.

One of the biggest mistakes the Devs made was Publish 9 which created the Village and the Jedi fiasco. It made attaining Jedi way too easy. I used to want to play a Jedi when it was dangerous and challenging to do so. That is what made Jedi attractive to me, but I guess that doesn't make me the average player of SWG. The average person wants things the easy way, they don't want to have to work for it.

Jedi was made made an alpha class because it was supposed to be both rare and a challenge, but it is no longer either of these things. We went from perma deaths and saber TEF's to only losing XP when killed by a BH. I call that a significant reduction of risk.

The risk and challenge, also the rarity, were the justification of the reward of Jedi being stronger than normal profs, not the length of the grind. I disagree with anyone who says that the length of the grind should be justification of the reward. I can remember way back before there were Jedi, and the majority of BH's felt we should be stronger than any other prof based on the fact of our gring and skill point cost, 217 points total(Master Scout/Marskman). Players and devs quickly shot that thought down.

Even with the reduced challenge of Jedi, most of the Jedi players still want XP loss gone from the game, but then what justification will Jedi have for being 1.5 times stronger than a normal profession? They'll have none. IMO, I think the Devs are slowly realizing that an alpha class is a mistake, but in true SOE dev fashion, they are slow to admit fault. I don't think their will be anymore alpha profs, such as analpha BH ect ect, but I do think Jedi will be slowly brought in line with other profs. I feel Jedi will be equal to every other elite combat prof by the end of the year. I get this feeling from talking to guildies that are Jedi and from some of the nerf/fixes that Jedi are getting each publish.

If they are brought in-line then I feel there should be no xp loss, and that they'll accumulate xp at the same rate as other profs. By this time, I hope there'll be Smuggler missions, as well as, some of the other player missions the Devs have talked about for BH.

One last thought, from what I've read of how the new missions will work is simply idiotic. BH's will not be given a name at all during the mission, and won't find out who they ae after till they get to the wp and target the Jedi. This is a prof I do care alot about. I've been a MBH since Sept/Oct 2003, and I won't be dropping BH because it would destroy 2+ years of RP for Zaren.

The last 3 paragraphs I feel will be coming in the newr future. If they do remove Jedi XP loss, then theres no reason to only have jedi as player bounties.

Question, what leads you to honestly believe that Jedi will be brought down to 1:1 ratio? I understand you were talking to friends and there maybe some Jedi nerf's recently but every indication from Tiggs is this is not the case. Nor do I think it will be from posts by him and those in the Jedi community.

Also if negative XP does go away it will be replaced with something else. Most Jedi don't have a problem with the negative XP, frankly in my opinion it's not a severe enough penalty. And many would agree with me. Many would like the old saber TEF back (granted mostly roleplayers) but if you're on the SOE boards and see a tag supporting Glzmo's vision for an improved FRS that is included, saber TEF's would return.

Now typically I don't agree when people say SOE caters to the Jedi, in many ways that's untrue. However in regards to bringing Jedi down to 1:1 SOE does agree with Jedi that it shouldnt happen. The nerf's are really bringing Jedi down yes but more to the 1.5x that SOE originally suggested would be the ratio.

If you look at most of the nerfs they've cenetered on the really over powered Jedi skills. Avoid Incap, something needed to be done there and so something was. However they also fixed Force Cloak so now Jedi are no longer targetable while cloaked. They've also reduced force cost and increased DPS for Force Powers. So I don't think this 1:1 thing will ever take place. The downside to the Jedi community and Jedi in general (including myself from time to time) is we're a bunch of Chicken Littles. Every time there's any kind of Nerf to any of the Jedi skills we automatically assume the sky is falling and cry about being nerfed and not being 1.5x stronger then the regular profession and I think what you're hearing is more related to that then the actual effects IG.

[Zaren Sin]

The guildies I talk to are all pre-9 Jedi, and I do understand that Jedi can be chicken littles. I just feel that at some point SOE will see that alpha-class profs are not healthy for any game, and not just the fued between Jedi and BH.

I understand Gizmo may have a good idea for the FRS, but since when have the Devs really listened to reason. They generally don't, which is why you might be correct in saying Jedi will remain an alpha class. I remember back at launch when they only launched about half of the servers which was a mistake because the servers they openede were overcrowded as all heck. (Just an example of Dev reasoning)

Anyway, back on topic, my reasoning is the lack of risk/challenge/rarity to justify Jedi being an alpha class. Yes avoid incap and healing needed to be fixed, and yes, they did increase the damage of powers, but powers have really been useless and needed an increase. If the Devs do go the Jedi equal normal prof route, I don't think it will be in one publish, but a gradual nerf over several publishes.

This is just my opinion, and the opinion of several Jedi that I know on Starsider. Hope this helps understand where I got the idea from.

[Isleh]

No I understand that your idea for other alpha classes would require more work then the regular profession. However you can grind MBH in a matter of days or a week tops. That would then make you eligible for the alpha class. Even if they used a quest or prestige system that required longer grinding then a normal profession it would still be much quicker then Jedi.

By making another alpha profession easier to get then Jedi all the people that wanted to be Uber but don't want to invest the time or work in getting a Jedi now have a much easier option with similar rewards as a much longer and harder grind. I mean technically to even qualify for Jedi you have to complete several long quests including mastering a normal elite profession I believe. And then you have to deal with the FS XP conversion rates. And minimal Jedi XP after that.

So you're just giving people an easier option so yes I do believe 95% of the people would flood to those easier alpha proefssions. What would be the point of being a rifleman? Or a Pistoleer? It would only compound the imbalance not help resolve it.

You're talking in absolutes before a system has even been designed. No, I'm not. I've stated and idea and haven't even touched on the how an why.

Sure you can grind out Master BH in a day or two. I just want to point out that you can become "Glowie" almost as easy and have the Old Man pay a visit but becoming "Glowie" does not mean you suddenly become a Jedi. It means you've started down a long road. Why do you assume that becoming a Master BH alone qualifies that player to start an alpha BH?

"So you're just giving people an easier option"
"By making another alpha profession easier"

You presume that since it isn't involving Jedi, obviously it *has* to be easier to gain. No. It can be juat as difficult if not more so to start and alpha BH or Smuggler.

You've designed a flawed system in your head and then use it as proof that it can't function.


Why Smuggler and Bounty Hunter? Because they are as much an icon of Star Wars as Jedi.