RP PvP/Duel Etiquette Draft

[toront]

Well, I guess just don't understand how to roleplay. Just returning to the game after a long departure, I find this "serious" discussion of roleplay to be counterproductive. Frankly, I don't work 12 hours a day to come home to be "serious" and have rules applied to me. The reasons listed in this thread are primarily while I don't roleplay out of the circle of friends I have in game. The minute you have to apply rules to something that is intangible that is created from the imagination you put artifical limitations on yourself and other. It limits creativity.

You have a choice to respond to the roleplay or to ignore it and go somewhere else. Again, we're back to the stoic rule that I must "respond to everything" that everyone throws at me. You have option to ignore them, use it. Don't complain about the decisions of others because you want them to play the game the way YOU want them to. Now, I will agree that in certain situations, dueling is appropriate, ie if a rebel officer insults and Imperial . However, I will never, never allow anyone to make me adhere to a specific set of rules unless they are outlined by SOE.

I will say this in closing(and I will disucss this matter no further in public threads), if roleplaying has become so serious that one feels that a long list of rules need to be established perhaps you need to evaluate if roleplaying is something you enjoy. Personally, I enjoy playing the game with a group of friends and having some roleplay fun. If someone doesn't respond to my RP, oh well. It's the creating aspect of roleplaying that's fun for me. In recent weeks, I have seen multiple instances of personal attacks and flaming on these boards. People come to Tales to enjoy the great community we've established with bright, creative people. If you're going to flame, take it back to the SOE Gorath board. Don't bring it here.

ILL

I am not saying that this is an iron-clad agreement that is cast in stone which every person must follow. It is what I, and several others believe would lead to more immersive environements, improving RP for everyone. You admit yourself that certain situations call for duels. All I'm really asking is that we eliminate some of the "all talk and no action". I'm not requiring everyone to accpet all duels from everyone at anytime. It is still your discretion. However, don't hide behind the duel command. If a situation comes upon you where someone's character would legitamately want to fight you, don't ruin the situation by refusing to let him hit you. I've repeated this point so many times now I feel it should be clear, but one final time:

/startrant
Talk smack, spout insults or physical emotes and all that good stuff and then refuse to allow me to fight back = bad rp. There is nothing stopping me in real life from hitting you if you did all that, so don't hide behind the conventions of the game during RP. I am not talking about other tangental cases or exceptions, just this specific type of problem, as it has happened to me and other TTF people several times. Put up, or shut up.
/endrant

As for the note of GCW control, I always come either Combatant/Special forces, which means those NPCs can attack me. They are simple minions, meat shields, kind of like the Storm Troopers/Alliance Soldiers in the films. 1-2 shots and dead. I acknowledge they are there, yet they are so unskilled, they do not affect me. As the GCW score on planets spreads further apart, the NPCs grow more skilled. If all the Imperial bases on Tatooine blew, those Troops would be lvl 85+, at that point, I would pay attention. I realize that, yes I attack rebels and the NPCs don't come flooding in, but there has to be some limit of accepting or ignoring conventions of the game.

[Viceroy Odantis]

and to Illbleed:

how would you like it if my group came over going "ROFL! U SUCK" and dfoing /punch 50 times a second and when you asked us "what the hell are you doing" we were like "don't tell us how to rp"

The whole goal here is supposed to be community. YOu threaten to return to your small group of friends. Ok and ttf will go back to only hanging with ttf, and midco will do the same, etc etc...not much accomplished.

No one is asking you to change your rp style. they are asking for rebels to stop going "FUCK THE EMPEROR" and then standing there mocking the imp who can't duel them. its stupid, period, flat out, stupid.You said in your post you were ok with this scenario...this is the only scenario we're really talking about, so what's the prob?


No one is going "ok every toon must have a bio, it has to be 2 pages long, it must not contain the following" etc or "you MUST rp while in bothese" or something like that. These are general etiquette rules to promote healthy and fun RP, i can't see why there's such a big problem

[Isleh]

Roleplaying is suppose to be fun.

Agree 1000%

Well, I guess just don't understand how to roleplay. Just returning to the game after a long departure, I find this "serious" discussion of roleplay to be counterproductive. Frankly, I don't work 12 hours a day to come home to be "serious" and have rules applied to me. The reasons listed in this thread are primarily while I don't roleplay out of the circle of friends I have in game. The minute you have to apply rules to something that is intangible that is created from the imagination you put artifical limitations on yourself and other. It limits creativity.

You have a choice to respond to the roleplay or to ignore it and go somewhere else. Again, we're back to the stoic rule that I must "respond to everything" that everyone throws at me. You have option to ignore them, use it. Don't complain about the decisions of others because you want them to play the game the way YOU want them to. Now, I will agree that in certain situations, dueling is appropriate, ie if a rebel officer insults and Imperial . However, I will never, never allow anyone to make me adhere to a specific set of rules unless they are outlined by SOE.

I will say this in closing(and I will disucss this matter no further in public threads), if roleplaying has become so serious that one feels that a long list of rules need to be established perhaps you need to evaluate if roleplaying is something you enjoy. Personally, I enjoy playing the game with a group of friends and having some roleplay fun. If someone doesn't respond to my RP, oh well. It's the creating aspect of roleplaying that's fun for me. In recent weeks, I have seen multiple instances of personal attacks and flaming on these boards. People come to Tales to enjoy the great community we've established with bright, creative people. If you're going to flame, take it back to the SOE Gorath board. Don't bring it here.

ILL

I never RPed with paper and pencil much but there are rules that actually help speed RP along rather than hinder it? So the RP doesn't com to a screeching halt with when an issue comes up with...

"How are we going to resolve this?"
"How about... No."
"What about this... ? No."
"We could.... No."
"Oh, lets just do it this way!"

Later

"Welll.... that sucked."
"Yeah, we need a better way."


Because that is almost exactly what happened at S&V. There was alot of confusion and if there was some sort of guidelines in place, things would have gone alot smoother and there would not have been the standing around, people missing /duels, etc. etc. etc.

What is wrong with this community saying "Hey, we tried doing this. And well, it sucked because we ran into this, this and this problem. Maybe next time if we did this, it would work better. And hey, if you try to do the same thing, you may want to try to do it this way. If you do it a different way and it works or doesn't, let the community know."

Alonzo and Toront (and others) are expressing there dislike of people who talk smack and then refuse to back it up [one of the many problems of PvP and RP] but I think the goal here is much larger.

I think it would be everyone's loss if you walk away from this discussion Illbleed.

[Illbleed]

I think it would be everyone's loss if you walk away from this discussion Illbleed.

Thank you for the sentiments, Isleh. I'm afraid I will not not be discussing this topic further in the public forum as stated before. I can already feel the hostility building in this thread and I will not contribute any longer to it's negativity. Any/all responses to the parties in this thread have been communicated in private messages.

ILL

[Isleh]

I can understand this approach. I would embrace it except it changes daily with some planets, and it would be near impossible to keep track of for the casual player. I tend to ignore npcs for this reason. If you want to allow 100% game mechanics to rule us, then no one can die, ever, and we all clone with no harm done, which really kills rp for me, dunno about you. Accepting a duel i believe is a rule of game mechanics harming rp if not utilized. Keeping track of the base scores...well...like you said i like to think of the movies as the way it is...this is harmed by the 8 billion jedi and the rebel troopers in the street. Like i said, i can understand your point but i mean i was rebel since launch until the curb hit...and i always treated it like imperials were in control, scolding other rebels who would come up to me going "but dude, you're a rebel!" So i hope people don't think my view is scewed because i'm currently imp.

I am reminded of the combatant system too as a major flaw for rp...

I have to stand idly by and watch rebels take down npcs, bases, etc, when they are combatant..nothing i can do...i choose to ignore this IC because ther'es no way my character would do that, but there's nothing i can do. I choose to let the npcs have their own world, and players have another, hopefully more inclined to follow the storyline that made us all want to play SW in the first place, the movies.

Okay, I simpathize because I walk by Imperial shooting Rebel NPCs and I have to do the same thing. Put the RP blinders on. Trying to play a covert rebel gun runner and I'm standing in the middle of Bestine and then have someone walk up and ask ... yeah, I do understand. The problem is that one may choose to ignore the NPCs while another may not and both are in their rights to do so.

• A storm trooper role-player may want to stand in the middle of Mos Eisley and check for contraband ignoring the rebel soliders standing around him.
  
  The rebel role-player who he's trying to inspect may be thinking "who is this nut in imperial armor trying to conduct searches with our troops standing around?"
  
  From the rebel role-player's point of view, the storm trooper role-player deserves absolutly no respect what so ever
  
  From the storm trooper role-player's point of view, the rebel player is not playing a proper rebel when the Empire controls the galaxy.
  
  Both think that the other are poor role-players and things just go downhill from there.

Alonzo, you play the way you want but since you may be going against what others take as cues as to who is in control, you are going to have to make allowances when you do.

• The Stormtrooper shouted "Isleh-lin Mott! You are under Imperial arrest!"
  
  Isleh-lin points to the alliance banners flying in Mos Eisley and to the alliance soliders patroling the street and says...
  "Not today, not in this city."

So now, the Stormtrooper duels me. Should I accept? After all, there are rebel soliders all over the place. This stormtrooper walked right past 2 of them right over there. There are another 5 rebel soldiers behind me. In a RL situation, I could call for help and maybe even more would come. So I decline.

Now I have to ask you Alonzo, if you were the stormtrooper, would I get the punch macro at that point?

[Viceroy Odantis]

well..yes and no...

see...i blame the imperial if he's in st armor and not at least combatant..if he is..the rebs will attck him..there's your backup..so if the imp is on leave...fuck that, he's on leave, tha'ts his fault...if not...accept the duel

[Nyvveck]

On the issue of city control.

Yes, you are correct that on our server the rebels are in control. And you have stated that, no, you will not be arrested in a rebel city. But, let us take an example from the real world. Special Forces teams have, on record, gone into hostile territory to draw out war criminals for trials. If it can happen today, why can't it happen in Galaxies? Now, I always travel SF or Combatent (unless of course, I just died). So yes, those rebel NPCs will help you. Now, let us look at S&V. If I am to fight my way to the Despot, killing all the NPCs on my way, what's to stop me from arresting someone? I just cut through the NPCs, so they won't help...and those rebel banners mean nothing without the rebel forces backing them up. Basicly, I could land in my VT-49 with a strike team, kill the rebels in a city, arrest someone, and take them back to my VT-49 for questioning and transportation. What's to stop me from doing that, and how would the rebel controled city have anything to do with me arresting you, if I can obviously kill the NPCs?

[Viceroy Odantis]

Here some more food for thought:

Its a war. GCW. Biggest war ever. If you're a rebel...you want to destroy the empire.

So why are we the only ones looking for conflict with the opposing side? If the rebels control the city, and you see me...why aren't you the one trying to duel me? You're a rebel. You think your fellow rebels would look kindly on you slinking away from the lone stormtrooper rather than shooting him? Plus, this is temporary military control....its not like the rebels have set upa government, a court system, etc. No way is storyline allowing for that. Short term military control would hardly provide a safe haven for long.

Like i said, if the imp comes combatant or better yet SF, the city is alrady hostile to them, so yes...if you are gonna act overt in your rebel actions, is till expect a /duel or better yet, go SF yourself.

[warsloth]

I personally will not be found as SF, because I dont feel like taking the ass handoff like a halfback every time I leave a starport.

There are certain conditions where it is understandable to want your duel accepted. In these cases, a failure to accept should be followed by a kind /tell explaining what action you are taking, possibly why, and that you dont intend to DB.

that is ettiquet.

If I happen to be wandering through a city and some dude wants to arrest me I have the option to:
A) take a /duel
B) Ignore him
C) send him a message explaining or asking what is/will happen.
D) eye him through my Uberese helmet and /emote taking his satchel as my personal trophy, then walk off in my little oblivious world.

obviously option A is going to work out, since the guy wants to duel you.
Option B is going to piss him off and maybe get a nasty macro whipped out. Option C is how you can branch off into hundreds of other possibilities...
What if you will go into custody quietly? What if he would just buttstroke you with his rifle? What if you decided you would rather submit to the search.

Not everyone is on the same page. Communication is going to get you further, especially since not everyone is visiting this site, and reading this little post.

[Viceroy Odantis]

In situations where the guy is willing to submit, the /duel would never occur. THe /duel occurs when the reb decides to go "Screw the empire, long live the rebellion" right in my face.

i'm more than willing to work with rp aspects but there is a CLEAR line where i'm not going to allow "/emote punches alonzo, knocking him out"

[toront]

I personally will not be found as SF, because I dont feel like taking the ass handoff like a halfback every time I leave a starport.

There are certain conditions where it is understandable to want your duel accepted. In these cases, a failure to accept should be followed by a kind /tell explaining what action you are taking, possibly why, and that you dont intend to DB.

that is ettiquet.

If I happen to be wandering through a city and some dude wants to arrest me I have the option to:
A) take a /duel
B) Ignore him
C) send him a message explaining or asking what is/will happen.
D) eye him through my Uberese helmet and /emote taking his satchel as my personal trophy, then walk off in my little oblivious world.

obviously option A is going to work out, since the guy wants to duel you.
Option B is going to piss him off and maybe get a nasty macro whipped out. Option C is how you can branch off into hundreds of other possibilities...
What if you will go into custody quietly? What if he would just buttstroke you with his rifle? What if you decided you would rather submit to the search.

Not everyone is on the same page. Communication is going to get you further, especially since not everyone is visiting this site, and reading this little post.

That's exactly what I was trying to get at in the general tips section of the post, by saying that an open dialogue in /tells will make nearly every situation go much more smoothly. The etiquette works well as a general outline of what is expected, but there is the fact that every situation is slightly different. Communication is the key to any successful interaction. As long as both sides stay on the same page, everyone should have fun.

[Nyvveck]

Something I would like to point out.

I ask you this question...how many times have you been randomly walking through a city, and have had an Imperial stormtrooper arrest you for no reason? I personally have never seen it, and if I do see it, that stormtrooper better have a damn good reason for the arrest (as an Inquisitor, it is my prime job to be on the look out for corruption).

Let me say this: All RP is based around an "action, reaction" scale. For example, an action would be someone shouting out "Death to the Emperor!" in an area where there are Imperials. Now, that person must be prepared to deal with the reaction, mainly getting jumped by the Imperials in the area. If you do not wish to deal with the reaction, don't shout out "Death to the Emperor!" in such an area.

From what I have seen, and done, Imperials are rarely the ones who start the "action". Let me take an example from when me, Alonzo, and Toront went to Ruby Lake (forgive me if I got the name of the place wrong, my memory is horrible). When we got there, Alonzo noticed the rebel banners, and quickly pointed them out to the rest of us. Now, I personally didn't come there for a fight. Indeed, as Ive said before, I am a reasonable man. Basicly, IC, I WANT to believe that everyone serves the Emperor, and as long as you stick away from insulting him or the Empire, you're safe.

However, make that step, and you will be treated without mercy.

The overall point I want to make with this:

I personally, will never randomly begin to verbally or physicly attack someone without reason. I am sure that Zo and Toront feel the same way. So, PvP is still VERY optional, and you CAN choose whether you wish to PvP or not. If you don't want to be harassed by Imperials, simply don't do anything to annoy us. Examples of things that annoy me: Refusing to show your ID (Why in hell would ANYONE EVER not give their ID, unless they are looking for trouble), Badmouthing the Empire to my face, and acting tough via /emotes, when the other party would MUCH rather settle the dispute by a duel.

[Leylea]

Just to add my two cents. At a RP event there are usually people there that a) are either new to rp b) thinking about learning to rp or c) just happen to be there and do not rp.

Based on this, as a rper, if I walked into a cantina as an Imperial and someone yelled out "Death to the Emporer", I would immediately assume that that person had no idea how to rp and focus my attention on find those that did.

Does every Imperial officer want to kill any person that defiles the Empire? I would hope that wouldnt be the case. I will say that I understand a /duel and incap to apprehend, but there would first need to be the attempt to apprehend. I would love to see more incap and get the hell out of there by the rebels and more incap and apprehend by the Imperials or vice versa should they be in a Rebel controlled area.

But to me it doesnt make sense that 4 Imperials can storm into a Rebel town into a cantina filled with Rebels and demand to see ID. I was at the Ruby Lake Cantina and I think it was a great effort for TTF to flag themselves to open the door for others to jump in but seeing as how most of the Rebels there were not on duty and able to take that action, backup being called in and people running to flag thenselves was necessary. In my opinion TTF was not zerged. Backup in Rebel town was called for. It fit the story line and was necessary due to the limiting game mechanics and lack of preplanning that is necessary for PvP RP. I want to stress that I think all parties did a great job given the situation.

I think it is great that TTF does a great job of RPing the villan, but there needs to be more planning if you wish to resort to violence. And I also would like to say that spamming is not necessary at a RP Event. RP it out and say lots of things or Shout to the cantina. I am giving the voice of a new rper in this community.. Not new to RP, but new to rp in the swg environment. I did not know what was taking place in Ruby Lake on Friday and when the spamming started it seemed like someone there to grief a party. People are going to get mad at you and say rude things if they think you are griefing. Take your time and work it out. This shouldnt be like a Western where you barge through the door. Come in one at a time mingle get a feel for the environment then make your bust, but take it slow and develop the plot. Give hints in dialogue or go ooc through tells to get the point across what you are trying to accomplish if it is not working.

To me the /duel command is tricky though. If I felt that someone through their RP with me had made my charater feel like violence was necessary, I would send that person a tell and say that we should duel not stick them with the /duel command and be pissed when they declined. Send them a tell so they can alert anyone in the room that would come to their defense so that all people could be flagged and the fight be rped accordingly.

This is in no way a flame on anyone. I admire TTF and all of the posters here that are trying to come up with a solution on how these things can be played out. I am giving my two cents and hoping to inspire some thought to how to come up with the solution.

[Viceroy Odantis]

Hey good post and i don't want you to think i don't plan on giving you a more detailed respone, but its 3:30am and ig ot work in the morning, just wantd to stay a quick word to be clea ron one fact.

The "zerging" we referred to was when after defeating the initial wave of overts...those same people who were just defeated came back with non rpers they grabbed at the recruiter just to try and win..then they lost agian...then tried again...this tactic is what we call zerging.

I especially considered it in bad taste since there ws a lev 19 there we weren't killing, we incapped and were interrogating him when the 2nd wave of overts showed up...which was just the first wave cloning and coming back.


I'll give you a much more deserved longer detailed resposne tomorrow though. Just wanted to clear that up before i hit teh sack

[Viceroy Odantis]

one more quickie....

The reason we gave the punch macro, our now infamous way of "dealing" with people who won't duel, was because the insults were getting a bit out of the rp scope in our opinion...it seemed like it was a purely ooc thing for the reb in quesiotn especially when they said "i'm kinda half-afk" in spatial...we started to think "ok this guy is not about to rp"

Our procedure is always: give an in character line that insinuates we're about to throw down...if the /duel is then ignored we send a polite tell asking to please accept the duel. If that is ignored we ask "if you aren't going to duel, please back down in character for the sake of rp" then if that's ignored the next step is the...well..the punch macro

Its basically our answer to "oh? you wanna be a verbal badass? cool, we cna be emote badasses then"

That's us really, to be honest we're a pretty straight forward group of guys and gals. We don't beat around the bush...we can ruffle some feathers but at the end of the day, you'll know where ttf stands on something...you'll never find out TTF secretly disapproved of something or avoided someone because we didn't like something they did and never even told them why. THat approach has its ups and downs...the ups being the "no games, no bs" conversations the cons being that occasionally someone reads that as "jerkish"

anyway, i promise, full detailed reply later, hehe again, the post was very constrcutive and well formed and you'll get a better reply later