Observation and semi rant

[Yala]

/nudge e-bo
/whisper Trials of Obi-Wan

Its directly connected to Episode III and intended to draw old as well as many new subscribers. The content is not "just for the jedi" ffs. Blame someone else for SOE's ability to hit on marketing and whats popular now. It is not an excuse to flame me, call me a tosser or tell me I'm just another one of those whiney and pesky Jedi. I'm a casual player like you. Not a pvp'er. I lose to pvp'ers, jedi or elites more often than not. I am NO DIFFERENT than you.

thank you

[Sai'nu]

I'm deffinately a part of the debate since I'm also a Jedi/working on Jedi player, Sis. Come to think of it; I haven't beaten a bounty hunter yet of the two successful times I've been hunted.

Do I support the idea that there shouldn't be Jedi in game? Yes, I do. But, I'm also that player that wanted and bought the game for it; expecting the casual player to be able to explore whatever they wanted within the Star Wars Universe. I guess I was expecting different content and balances for the game than what they gave us.

I don't think we're really flamming each other here. We've all got our own points of view of what should and shouldn't be in the game. This is but one of many problems. *shrugs* Game On!

[DuoXDuoX]

yeah gotta deal with this balance issue

[E-bo Obi]

Ok. To anyone that thinks I hate the people that play Jedi...

I never said I didn't like the people. I just don't like the class. And I said it in a general context. It has nothing to do with DPS or how much better than can kill something than I can. Those of you that have played this game with me know that the last thing I really care about is UBERNESS. I play to have fun. There is only one Jedi I can't stand in this game and even if he weren't a Jedi I wouldn't like him.

Don't be so damn defensive. I am dealing with the fact that there are Jedi ingame and this is why I never post my opinion. People ask for thoughts and opinions but they never want to hear it when you don't agree with them.

So here is a suggestion. If you are afraid of the answer, don't ask the question.

[toront]

Ok. To anyone that thinks I hate the people that play Jedi...

I never said I didn't like the people. I just don't like the class. And I said it in a general context. It has nothing to do with DPS or how much better than can kill something than I can. Those of you that have played this game with me know that the last thing I really care about is UBERNESS. I play to have fun. There is only one Jedi I can't stand in this game and even if he weren't a Jedi I wouldn't like him.

Don't be so damn defensive. I am dealing with the fact that there are Jedi ingame and this is why I never post my opinion. People ask for thoughts and opinions but they never want to hear it when you don't agree with them.

So here is a suggestion. If you are afraid of the answer, don't ask the question.

It's cool, I never jumped down on you because I agree with you. This game would be far more interesting if Jedi were completely equal with a full template combat or simply didn't exist.

The only reason I jumped into this thread was at first talking about xp and then trying to dispell the illusion that 3 Jedi can walk down to the bottom of the DWB without breaking a sweat, or that any content in the game requires Jedi to be completed.

I know most people in this forum have at least a moderate amount of Jedi hate (and as I said, to some extent I agree), it's just frustrating when people seem to base this on inaccuracies or their perceptions which may not be true. That was all I was trying to clear up, as someone that has played on both sides quite a bit.

[Hashum]

Ok. To anyone that thinks I hate the people that play Jedi...

I never said I didn't like the people. I just don't like the class. And I said it in a general context. It has nothing to do with DPS or how much better than can kill something than I can. Those of you that have played this game with me know that the last thing I really care about is UBERNESS. I play to have fun. There is only one Jedi I can't stand in this game and even if he weren't a Jedi I wouldn't like him.

Don't be so damn defensive. I am dealing with the fact that there are Jedi ingame and this is why I never post my opinion. People ask for thoughts and opinions but they never want to hear it when you don't agree with them.

So here is a suggestion. If you are afraid of the answer, don't ask the question.

It's cool, I never jumped down on you because I agree with you. This game would be far more interesting if Jedi were completely equal with a full template combat or simply didn't exist.

The only reason I jumped into this thread was at first talking about xp and then trying to dispell the illusion that 3 Jedi can walk down to the bottom of the DWB without breaking a sweat, or that any content in the game requires Jedi to be completed.

I know most people in this forum have at least a moderate amount of Jedi hate (and as I said, to some extent I agree), it's just frustrating when people seem to base this on inaccuracies or their perceptions which may not be true. That was all I was trying to clear up, as someone that has played on both sides quite a bit.

Exactly what Toront said. I don't think any of us (jedi) mind the hate as long as it's at least justifiable. If you hate us because we shouldn't be in the game at this time period sure that's legit I can't blame you.

But like Toront said when we're hated because someone believes we're something we're not, then yeah that is a bit annoying and we want to clarify that.

[Krusshyk]

I will be the first to admit I know jack shite about the jedi prof. Abilities, pros, cons...the works...I know squat. That said...all I can go on is my perceptions, which seems like a fair place to start.

There are lots of claims that jedi are not as powerful as everyone makes them out to be. Ok...once again reiterating that I have no clue from experience, I have a hard time buying that. Why? Because everyone and their damn brother wants to BE a jedi, don't they? I don't think people pick up SWG and think "Damn...I want to be a rifleman...it totally captures the Star Wars mystique". They want to be jedi. I don't think anyone can deny the fact that a majority of players (if only a simple majority) want to be jedi.

With that in mind, you mean to tell me, that all of the kids who play this game are just DYING to play a profession that is only slightly better relative to the others? Seems almost counter intuitive to me.

How does one make sense of that?

[Hashum]

I will be the first to admit I know jack shite about the jedi prof. Abilities, pros, cons...the works...I know squat. That said...all I can go on is my perceptions, which seems like a fair place to start.

There are lots of claims that jedi are not as powerful as everyone makes them out to be. Ok...once again reiterating that I have no clue from experience, I have a hard time buying that. Why? Because everyone and their damn brother wants to BE a jedi, don't they? I don't think people pick up SWG and think "Damn...I want to be a rifleman...it totally captures the Star Wars mystique". They want to be jedi. I don't think anyone can deny the fact that a majority of players (if only a simple majority) want to be jedi.

With that in mind, you mean to tell me, that all of the kids who play this game are just DYING to play a profession that is only slightly better relative to the others? Seems almost counter intuitive to me.

How does one make sense of that?

Ok, you almost touch on the answer in your question. Frankly the reason that a majority of players want to be Jedi, is because they saw the movie, they've played Star Wars games and frankly who can blame them. That's the reason I picked up the game myself.

Where I think the communication drop is that many of those people don't understand or even care about all the other stuff (abilities, pro's, con's, etc) they want to hold a Lightsaber, use Force Lightning, etc. They see it, it looks cool, they want to do it.

But the honest truth of the matter is if you later ask that same person about being a Jedi once they've unlocked they will tell you from a game mechanics stand point the profession really isn't that much better then a well planned out non-Jedi template. But they'd still rather be using a Lightsaber instead of a T-21. It just has a Star Wars feel to it is all.

I only say this because I myself have experienced it. If I invested the amount of credits in Hashum as a BH that I have as a Jedi I be just as powerful or more powerful as the BH. But I'd rather being holding a lightsaber then a carbine is all. And I think this is why you see so many Ebay Jedi. Once they realize what they worked so hard for their a bit disillussioned and so try to recoup something for their time.

Then those EJedi come in not knowing what they're missing, and that's why the Jedi Forum on SOE is so full of Jedi whining (IMHO).

[Krusshyk]

So they get to be jedi and think "Wow this profession is totally not as good as I thought it would be, but I will stick it out"?

Hmm...I think we overestimate the nostalgia factor in a lot of instances. With the exception of RP'ers, I doubt very highly people pick their professions on "what makes sense for star wars". In fact, if they did, we would have...let me see...0 player jedi. Instead of however many hundred or thousand we have. Yes, thousand.

The honest truth is that people want to be "good" at the game, regardless of what makes sense. They want to kill things faster and better than everyone else. They want to kill the tough creatures that others can't. They want to go after the bosses that drop the good shit because they are stronger than everyone else. Don't tell me people want to play jedi because it's something they dreamed of since childhood. I am sure there are some, but for everyone of them, there are a hundred losers out there who use the phrase "I pwned you" and think it means more than absolutely jack shit. I can't tell you how many jedi I saw yesterday in a total of 4 different cities. And those are the people playing jedi classes because Star Wars = Jedi and NOT because Jedi=I win? You are still pitching a tough sell to me.

Look, I am not arguing facts here. If a jedi says to me, look it's not that powerful, then they know better than I do; he is probably right. But I am just saying...here is what gives me pause to believe you.

[Keer]

While I'm not trying to get in-between on this issue, there is an interesting point of philosophy raised from Krussh's question. Hashum addressed it well. I can't speak for Jedi desire directly but I do know that there are many players who play a profession in large part for the cachet of it. It makes them feel good despite having the profession borked.

Smuggler:

I knew exactly what I wanted to play before I bought SWG. I didn't want to make or sell spice. I didn't want to tweak guns n' armor. Didn't want to fix reputations. I wanted to smuggle. Why did I stick with it for so long? Never surrendering one skill box after Mastering? Because it made me feel good to be a "Master Smuggler" and hope that one day the title might live up to something.

I know a guy who was a Droid Engineer from Launch and refused to ever drop it. This was even back when droids were totally decoration. I remember him always musing about "one day...imagine if they made this prof cool...".

Now the Jedi may have been in a better functioning role from the start, but the point is that for many of them, it probably just makes them feel good. Like Hashum said. They're stuck on the notion more than the function. I definitely can understand that point of view.

As far as the effect of Jedi on SWG in general, I'll leave that alone. The meteor hit the surface a long time ago.

[toront]

I will not argue that Jedi automatically have an edge. They are on average more powerful than normal combat templates. I will not refute that because it would be flat out wrong.

In PvP, to the hardcore gamers, every edge counts. Some get caught up in other things like not being cookie cutter/FOTM or whatever, but for the most part they are looking for what is 'best'. The 'theory of fun' for those that have read it relates perfectly. If you consider PvP to have the objective of killing opposing players as quickly and easily as possible, then it is understood that most players will look to the shortest, most efficient route. When Jedi can get a wider range of useful skills with less skill points and be able to take more than one role (tank, cannon, mezzer, healer, etc) players will flock to it. It is not all that different than early in SWG days when 2-3 templates would rule the PvP field, except now it is an entire class.

All this said, the point I argue is the percieved gap between normal players and Jedi. It seems that the perception from most people that have never played Jedi is that the class is essentially god mode and miles above normal characters. It is this point I refute. Yes, Jedi have an automatic edge and are by default a more powerful class. However, this edge is only a slight one, and can be overcome by skill, equipment and knowledge of the game. That is all I'm shooting for, an understanding from non-Jedi that Jedi are not untouchable.

[Hashum]

So they get to be jedi and think "Wow this profession is totally not as good as I thought it would be, but I will stick it out"?

Hmm...I think we overestimate the nostalgia factor in a lot of instances. With the exception of RP'ers, I doubt very highly people pick their professions on "what makes sense for star wars". In fact, if they did, we would have...let me see...0 player jedi. Instead of however many hundred or thousand we have. Yes, thousand.

The honest truth is that people want to be "good" at the game, regardless of what makes sense. They want to kill things faster and better than everyone else. They want to kill the tough creatures that others can't. They want to go after the bosses that drop the good shit because they are stronger than everyone else. Don't tell me people want to play jedi because it's something they dreamed of since childhood. I am sure there are some, but for everyone of them, there are a hundred losers out there who use the phrase "I pwned you" and think it means more than absolutely jack shit. I can't tell you how many jedi I saw yesterday in a total of 4 different cities. And those are the people playing jedi classes because Star Wars = Jedi and NOT because Jedi=I win? You are still pitching a tough sell to me.

Look, I am not arguing facts here. If a jedi says to me, look it's not that powerful, then they know better than I do; he is probably right. But I am just saying...here is what gives me pause to believe you.

I completely understand where you're coming from and I don't think you're arguing either. I just want to find the words that would help some of you understand what it is like on this side of the tracks.

But for me the Jedi profession is truely about having a Star Wars feel, not the preceived uberness of the profession. Now I have admitted in some area's there is a slight advantage to being a Jedi. I don't really agree that it's 1.5x better then a complete non-Jedi template but there are some advantages.

For instance Saber's due have a very small gap between Min and Max damage which means you'll consistently over a period of time probably due more damage then a non-Jedi when both of their damages are reduced to their Min damage by the MOB.

Non-Jedi who don't pick up healing often complain that we can heal ourselves but really anyone with CM or Doc in their template should know that Jedi healing is not as effective in most cases however when we can compliment that with Avoid Incap giving us sort of a free 30 second window that can be an advantage.

So yes there are some advantages to being a Jedi, but I honestly think many Jedi are disappointed when they find what they've gotten. And you can't really go back once you've reached Jedi because you've got at least 24 SP used up that can't be dropped once you get Padawan. So you just have to make the best of it.

Now for those few Jedi who take the time to truely understand the profession and the few advantages they have then I have no doubt that they maybe able to reach the 1.5x or possibly even 2-3x a non-Jedi. Depending on who they're fighting, all things equal I think a well trained Jedi with a FOTM type template could probably take 1 MBH/MCM or 2 non-Jedi without Doc or CM in their template.

However on the other side Non-Jedi don't have a Force Bar, all their specials draw from Action and Mind which can be buffed and have their regen rates increased to sustain long periods of combat. The Force Bar is very slow to regen even when your template is finished. There is nothing to help that outside of CA's and the improvement is margnial.

This forces us to take breaks frequently to recover while a non-Jedi doesn't have this problem. And our specials also drain from our Action and Mind pools so we also have to be watching those just as closely as non-Jedi. And many of the benefits above such as Avoid Incap uses about 1/5th of your total Force and slaps a Snare on you.

So it's really a give and take. I mean ask Alonzo he is able to defeat Jedi on a regular basis. Heck he beat Toront widely considered one of the best PvP'ers on the server in general. So for all the trouble it is to get a Jedi and grind the Jedi to a full template, is there really a significant advantage, no.

[toront]

As a side note, I picked up the box wanting to play Jedi, and that is why I do. If they nerfed Jedi down to equal standing compared ot all other professions, I'd still play it. I did a decent part of the hologrind until it began to pull me away from the actual fun of this game: friends, events, etc. A quest system was on the horizon, so I waited for that to continue down my path.

If Jedi was brought down to be completely equal power-wise to all other professions, my guess is it would still be one of the most popular professions based purely on it's representation/importance in the films on which this game is based. What I would expect to see is another large set of players that would migrate to some other template that was in someway more effective or better simply for that reason.

[Jerrel]

Here's my 2 cents

SOE has screwed up. their hole handleing of Jedi has been utterly horrible. First they give us the holo grind witch allowed everybody to become jedi as long as they mastered each profession, hard for a gamer like myself who likes to actually play the game, easy for the grinders. Then they make the villiage and within weeks tells every one how to get acess to said villiage witch allows everyones cousin to become jedi after xp ginding and missions.

SOE wanted to make it hard to become jedi (at least thats the official stance last I heard) yet they make a system that once learned is eaily repeatable. They have no jedi caps per server and since there is no real death in the game there is no way to widdle down the jedi population.

IMHO this would have been a better way to handle jedi and FS. When the character is generated you have a 5% probability of being FS. You, the player, would not be informed if you are FS or not. SOE then hires a team of 50 per server who would play jedi. These jedi's sole purpose is to find players who are FS and train them to become jedi. If you are FS and join the Empire upon reacting a sertain rank the Empire discovers your FS and places you in force training opening the DS for you.

As for jedi's power the reason why people complain is the fact that there are many players who are jedi out there. Before CU how many large PvP battles went to the side with the most jedi? Jedi should be powerful but they should also be rare. Rare enough that one need not worry if the other side has any jedi in their ranks. But since we have a game where jedi are plentiful their powers should be toned down so that the other professions are not overwhelemed.

Think of this also in RP terms.

Your walking down a street lookin for trouble (PvP) and you pick out a guy you think you might be able to take. You pull out your blaster and yell at the guy for walking down your street and let one fly but before the sound of the lightsaber activating finishes echoing off the concrete walls the shoot is deflected off harmlessly.

Now in the SWU this would send terror though your veins. The jedi are exstict and the one guy you choose to pic on is a jedi whats your chance of survival...you find out in less then a second.

In the SWG universe this is a common occurance and would only illicit an explergative followed by "not again."

Now having this be a common occurance you think its fair to the rest of the community to say nearly half (exageration: not sure what the % of the PvP community are jedi) the fights you get into your gona loose regaudless of what you do? Istead SOE tones the jedi down so instead you might think "@#$! not again, I hope I make it though this one."

[Hashum]

Jerrel the point is though that is not the case. Just because you pick on a Jedi does not mean you're going to lose 50% of the battles with Jedi. Sure Joe Nobody off the street just mastered his two and a half professions in two days and is now looking for PvP is going to get his butt handed to him.

Any true PvP'er with experience, has a 50/50 chance in just about every fight, Jedi or not. As Toront said our advantages as Jedi are counterable by equipment, preperation, and knowledge of the game.

Now some long time player decides to join in on a PvP battle, and jumps into the frey also has a very unlikely chance of winning. Sure this is compounded by the fact that Jedi do have an innate edge in PvP (more so then PvE). But the real factor in the loss would have been equipment and preperation.

The Jedi in the battle would have been prepared for PvP as we most always have to be, the right foods, stim's, and weapon and it's the combination of those factor's that create the instance where someone will automatically assume that Jedi or uber elite when really the scenario was not balanced from the start.