SPLIT: RPvP Discussion

[Sai'nu]

I don't want to start an argument for a split thread... but there really is 'no' point to it in SWG. Planetary control simply translates into who is doing the most killing to change the npc spawns in cities. If there was a 'point' to it... I might be more opt to do it. PvP=Senselessness for me. Rating... doesn't mean anything unless it gives you some sort of stat bonus or factional advantage... gah... I'm derailing here, sorry. Just wanted to speak for the Non-PvPers.

As roleplayers, it is our job to make a point to it. This is why we invent stories with a conflict element.

That's true and, as I've already stated, I do adhere to dueling in a story arc. I think this has only ever happened to me twice in fact.

I was speaking more along the terms of the fact that PvP 'has' no mechanic value in the game; and that's a piss poor shame on the Dev's part I think. If it really had more perks for doing it... more of us might be a bit more enthused to do it.

Now guild waring for the sake of guild waring... I still see no purpose in this either; unless it deals with a story arc. So far; It sounds like we're 'joking' about guild waring for the sake of doing it. I'm not at all interested in that. *shrug*

[Viceroy Odantis]

You forgot the biggest "point" to pvp


this is a video game, pvp is fun


this big global war (which isn't even RP) has been the most fun ttf has had in ages..the whole SERVER is in agreement, this war OWNS


now imagine the fun putting some rp into it, its just fun...i don't need Pants of the Imperial Mongoose as a reward for killing 10 players this week, its just FUN to pvp

[Sai'nu]

Ok, ok, I can agree on the sportsmanship of it. Fun, if it's what you like to do.

I... *blush*... guess I've fallen into the trap of wanting more bang for my buck. A participate and reward system... something for our efforts.

[Ekade]

Ok, ok, I can agree on the sportsmanship of it. Fun, if it's what you like to do.

I... *blush*... guess I've fallen into the trap of wanting more bang for my buck. A participate and reward system... something for our efforts.

wtfpwnage is reward enough, young padawan. To melt the face of some n00b, well, it just does not get any better than that.

Macro this:
/deathblow;
/pause 10;
/r crai more n00b, learn how to play your class;


The pwn is strong in your family, your Kiva has it.. you have it. Your *sisters* have it.


Seriously, the most fun is to go after people who talk the most on the forums. "Name" targets, if you will. You soon learn that everyone is mortal. There are a lot of "fans" out there that like to make some people out be to PvP gods. In truth, PvP is not hard and everyone is very capable of getting pwnd.

[Sai'nu]

Why do I get the feeling your going to be the death of me?

/grin

Sooo... looks like I'm getting enrolled into PvP school wither I want to... or not, Hmm?

[toront]

Ok, ok, I can agree on the sportsmanship of it. Fun, if it's what you like to do.

I... *blush*... guess I've fallen into the trap of wanting more bang for my buck. A participate and reward system... something for our efforts.

wtfpwnage is reward enough, young padawan. To melt the face of some n00b, well, it just does not get any better than that.

Macro this:
/deathblow;
/pause 10;
/r crai more n00b, learn how to play your class;


The pwn is strong in your family, your Kiva has it.. you have it. Your *sisters* have it.


Seriously, the most fun is to go after people who talk the most on the forums. "Name" targets, if you will. You soon learn that everyone is mortal. There are a lot of "fans" out there that like to make some people out be to PvP gods. In truth, PvP is not hard and everyone is very capable of getting pwnd.

Yeah, Immortals turn out ot not be quite as "immortal" as they think

There has been talk that the reason there's no FRS is that they are working on a GCW ranking system likely along the same lines of the WoW honor system (from what I know of it, never played). I would expect possibly some health bonus, general accuracy and speed and melee/ranged defence. I believe that some type of "endgame" to pvp is being worked on and on its way to give the meaning you're looking for.

My only hope is that entering into the system requires people to be permaovert, thus opening up the PvP so that there are always overts.

[Sai'nu]

Yeah, Immortals turn out ot not be quite as "immortal" as they think

There has been talk that the reason there's no FRS is that they are working on a GCW ranking system likely along the same lines of the WoW honor system (from what I know of it, never played). I would expect possibly some health bonus, general accuracy and speed and melee/ranged defence. I believe that some type of "endgame" to pvp is being worked on and on its way to give the meaning you're looking for.

My only hope is that entering into the system requires people to be permaovert, thus opening up the PvP so that there are always overts.

That would be a vast improvement and, indeed, would be what I'd hope for in an MMO 'reward' for PvP system. In WoW... it gives you rank... but it fades over time if you don't keep up your PvP.

For the sake of keeping the Jedi out of flameshot though... I 'do' hope they keep FRS and GCWRS seperate entities or we'll end up with even more arguments.

That 'is' inticing news to hear at least.

[Ekade]

Why do I get the feeling your going to be the death of me?

Yes, yes I am.

PvP is just fun.. many games we play are PvP.. chess, monopoly, tic-tac-toe, most team sports. They are fun because they *are* PvP. You are competing against another person.

PvP is fun for the same reasons RP is fun. You are interacting with another human brain.

Honestly, PvP used to make me really nervous.. and sometimes it still does (kinda like pre-game jitters). But that's also why it is exciting.. and once you get rolling, the nerves subside and it is pwn or be pwnd.

Sooo... looks like I'm getting enrolled into PvP school wither I want to... or not, Hmm?

Yes, I am filling out the paperwork now.



The main reason why people get turned off by PvP is poor sportsmanship. Hopefully we don't see any of that.

[Ekade]

Yeah, Immortals turn out ot not be quite as "immortal" as they think

There has been talk that the reason there's no FRS is that they are working on a GCW ranking system likely along the same lines of the WoW honor system (from what I know of it, never played). I would expect possibly some health bonus, general accuracy and speed and melee/ranged defence. I believe that some type of "endgame" to pvp is being worked on and on its way to give the meaning you're looking for.

My only hope is that entering into the system requires people to be permaovert, thus opening up the PvP so that there are always overts.

The WoW system of honor is pretty good. The upside is that "faction" and "rank" is gained through PvP. The downside is that, like everything in any MMO, players try to turn it into a farmable thing to get the maximum benefit in the minimum amount of time.

Designers often make the mistake of implementing a system that assumes the players goal is to have fun. Most players put "win" before "fun", it is human nature. To win is the fun.

Permaovert is a bad idea. I still like my PvP to be consensual.. solely because we have a lot of dumbasses on this server that will never be anything but. I don't want every RP scene I do to get overrun by idiot gank squads trying to farm me for "honor". My RP would be limited, if not destroyed, by permaovert status. It puts my gameplay at the mercy of non-roleplayers and that is completely unacceptable.

However, you can only get "honor" by being overt, so that should help the game by having more overts around. They key is designing the rewards so that there is good incentive to compete for PvP rank.

[Viceroy Odantis]

Well, but the thing is there needs to be a system that prevents this scenario:


"hey there's a group of 3 guys overt, we have 5 guys, let's go overt"

<insert wtfpwn>

"ok now let's go covert again and hide in our houses"


i mean right now there are a sad majority of people who do this just to protect pvp rating...a stat that means NOTHING. Imagine if it actually MATTERED?


perhaps you lose x amount of "honor" per week, however if you aren't overt while logged in, you lose double that....then you gotta watch for one other thing: making sure people don't just go overt in their house and only come out when numbers favor them. A lot of intricacies to this type of system. You want to reward the guys who are actually GOOD and actually fight well..not the guys who jump noobs and hide like bitches

[KirtViza]

Well, but the thing is there needs to be a system that prevents this scenario:


"hey there's a group of 3 guys overt, we have 5 guys, let's go overt"

<insert wtfpwn>

"ok now let's go covert again and hide in our houses"


i mean right now there are a sad majority of people who do this just to protect pvp rating...a stat that means NOTHING. Imagine if it actually MATTERED?


perhaps you lose x amount of "honor" per week, however if you aren't overt while logged in, you lose double that....then you gotta watch for one other thing: making sure people don't just go overt in their house and only come out when numbers favor them. A lot of intricacies to this type of system. You want to reward the guys who are actually GOOD and actually fight well..not the guys who jump noobs and hide like bitches

/agree

I would be deaply depressed if the GCWRS was covert/overt tho everyone wants it to be overt minus a few, but you have to think of Risk vs reward and thats why your Perma Overt and I love it, Kirt wont get into the System unless it was a BH thing which i dont see happening but still In a RP guild war is more of immersion so i dont have to sit around and duel I just say WTFPWN after i db your ass with or without armor on, thats why my clothes are armor Always be prepared I say.

[Ekade]

Well, but the thing is there needs to be a system that prevents this scenario:


"hey there's a group of 3 guys overt, we have 5 guys, let's go overt"

<insert wtfpwn>

"ok now let's go covert again and hide in our houses"


i mean right now there are a sad majority of people who do this just to protect pvp rating...a stat that means NOTHING. Imagine if it actually MATTERED?


perhaps you lose x amount of "honor" per week, however if you aren't overt while logged in, you lose double that....then you gotta watch for one other thing: making sure people don't just go overt in their house and only come out when numbers favor them. A lot of intricacies to this type of system. You want to reward the guys who are actually GOOD and actually fight well..not the guys who jump noobs and hide like bitches

Here is something you don't want to hear:

It is impossible to create a mathematical system that rewards you for being a "good" PvP'er. There is absolutely no way for the server to know that you are "good" at PvP. So, get that thought out of your head.

Undoubtedly, we'll end up with a points system that people will figure out (see A theory of Fun) and begin to farm it. So the top ranked people will not be the best PvP'ers, but rather those who have the most time to grind. As with anything in an MMO, grinding is, and always will be, the ultimate "skill".

...

WoW's "honor" system basically gives you points for killing people. You get more points for killing higher ranked people, but there also is diminishing returns tied into it. Meaning, if you kill a player over and over, you get 25% less honor each time. You also gain honor for accomplishing objectives in, and winning Battle Grounds (PvP instances, specific games that try to ensure even numbers on each side).

You dont lose honor by dying, so you really don't have much to lose. You rank is determined by how your lifetime honor compares with the rest of the players in your faction. So.. if you stop PvP'ing, people will pass you up and you lose rank that way.

The result is that you are competing against your own faction for points. You want to be the one getting the most "honor".

There are flaws in the system.. but it does get people wanting to to PvP that otherwise might not. Generally speaking, the higher ranked players are better skilled than the average player.. but not always "the best".

One positive result is that your rank will benefit from being on a good team. The higher ranked players are so because they are usually in a group that runs BG's well together. So, whether by design or not, good teamwork results in good rank. Anything that encourages social play is good for MMO's, in my opinion.


So, if SWG adopted a WoW-like system.. where you can only gain honor.. then there really is no benefit to hiding in your house. While you are hiding, other people are gaining honor.. hence, you lose by hiding.

[toront]

Well, but the thing is there needs to be a system that prevents this scenario:


"hey there's a group of 3 guys overt, we have 5 guys, let's go overt"

<insert wtfpwn>

"ok now let's go covert again and hide in our houses"


i mean right now there are a sad majority of people who do this just to protect pvp rating...a stat that means NOTHING. Imagine if it actually MATTERED?


perhaps you lose x amount of "honor" per week, however if you aren't overt while logged in, you lose double that....then you gotta watch for one other thing: making sure people don't just go overt in their house and only come out when numbers favor them. A lot of intricacies to this type of system. You want to reward the guys who are actually GOOD and actually fight well..not the guys who jump noobs and hide like bitches

Here is something you don't want to hear:

It is impossible to create a mathematical system that rewards you for being a "good" PvP'er. There is absolutely no way for the server to know that you are "good" at PvP. So, get that thought out of your head.

Undoubtedly, we'll end up with a points system that people will figure out (see A theory of Fun) and begin to farm it. So the top ranked people will not be the best PvP'ers, but rather those who have the most time to grind. As with anything in an MMO, grinding is, and always will be, the ultimate "skill".

...

WoW's "honor" system basically gives you points for killing people. You get more points for killing higher ranked people, but there also is diminishing returns tied into it. Meaning, if you kill a player over and over, you get 25% less honor each time. You also gain honor for accomplishing objectives in, and winning Battle Grounds (PvP instances, specific games that try to ensure even numbers on each side).

You dont lose honor by dying, so you really don't have much to lose. You rank is determined by how your lifetime honor compares with the rest of the players in your faction. So.. if you stop PvP'ing, people will pass you up and you lose rank that way.

The result is that you are competing against your own faction for points. You want to be the one getting the most "honor".

There are flaws in the system.. but it does get people wanting to to PvP that otherwise might not. Generally speaking, the higher ranked players are better skilled than the average player.. but not always "the best".

One positive result is that your rank will benefit from being on a good team. The higher ranked players are so because they are usually in a group that runs BG's well together. So, whether by design or not, good teamwork results in good rank. Anything that encourages social play is good for MMO's, in my opinion.


So, if SWG adopted a WoW-like system.. where you can only gain honor.. then there really is no benefit to hiding in your house. While you are hiding, other people are gaining honor.. hence, you lose by hiding.

The advantage would not be losing honor to the gank squad of 50 standing outside. If you don't want to go out into them, that's fine, but you can't also go hunt krayts with your bonus health and combat mods. It has to be risk vs reward. If you made it possible to go covert/overt, it would lead to the same PvP problems we find now, that being that you never run into 1-2 overts, you run into 30. The reason nearly all the PvPers of this server are in a huge guildwar is so we can actually find PvP.

I understand your personal reasoning, that you wouldn't want to be griefed at RP things, but for every good intended use of going covert/overt, there are 5 abuses of it. If you aren't willing to go overt 24/7, don't enter the ranking system. There will still be consentul PvP, except that the consent is given at the first time, joining the system,

[Isleh]

The advantage would not be losing honor to the gank squad of 50 standing outside. If you don't want to go out into them, that's fine, but you can't also go hunt krayts with your bonus health and combat mods. It has to be risk vs reward. If you made it possible to go covert/overt, it would lead to the same PvP problems we find now, that being that you never run into 1-2 overts, you run into 30. The reason nearly all the PvPers of this server are in a huge guildwar is so we can actually find PvP.

I understand your personal reasoning, that you wouldn't want to be griefed at RP things, but for every good intended use of going covert/overt, there are 5 abuses of it. If you aren't willing to go overt 24/7, don't enter the ranking system. There will still be consentul PvP, except that the consent is given at the first time, joining the system,

The way I understand Ekade's description of the system, you lose nothing to the gank squad (except a little pride). You are compared to your own side only and not to the oposing side. They may gank you, boost their rank a bit, but it means nothing to your rank and you rank remains unchanged.

If I remember correctly, you lose rank by killing NPCs that are much weaker too.

[Ekade]

The advantage would not be losing honor to the gank squad of 50 standing outside. If you don't want to go out into them, that's fine, but you can't also go hunt krayts with your bonus health and combat mods. It has to be risk vs reward. If you made it possible to go covert/overt, it would lead to the same PvP problems we find now, that being that you never run into 1-2 overts, you run into 30. The reason nearly all the PvPers of this server are in a huge guildwar is so we can actually find PvP.

I understand your personal reasoning, that you wouldn't want to be griefed at RP things, but for every good intended use of going covert/overt, there are 5 abuses of it. If you aren't willing to go overt 24/7, don't enter the ranking system. There will still be consentul PvP, except that the consent is given at the first time, joining the system,

The way I understand Ekade's description of the system, you lose nothing to the gank squad (except a little pride). You are compared to your own side only and not to the oposing side. They may gank you, boost their rank a bit, but it means nothing to your rank and you rank remains unchanged.

If I remember correctly, you lose rank by killing NPCs that are much weaker too.

Correct.. getting ganked costs you nothing. In fact, due to the diminishing returns mechanism, the gankers get less and less honor for repeatedly ganking you. So they lose if they decide to sit there and gank.

You only "lose" if you don't do any killing, because everyone else in your faction is passing you by.


Toront:
Ideally we could live on a server where everyone was attackable all the time. That is realistic and immersive. I would love it. However, the asshat factor makes consensual PvP a must.

I could forsee a system where you can sign on for a tour of duty that lasts a fixed amount of time, and you are overt for the specified duration. Perhaps you get a % faction bonus for signing on for longer stints. A one-day tour of duty would not be as rewarding as a 1 week tour of duty. Just an idea.