Since there's a lot of sh!@ talking going on...

[Shensen]

Hmm a challenge from a fellow purple-skinned one :P I'm not finished yet, but I'll take a beating.

[Viceroy Odantis]

<---- can solo most rp guilds





Seriously, i've taken down the best non-rp pvper jedis around, won the pvp tourney on gorath with only one roadblock, and that's my fellow ttfer, Toront.

I am pretty sure toront is the only person on the server who can beat me. We tend to have a back and forth thing, sometimes he wins, sometimes i win...right now given his latest improvements and the fact i'm probably rusty with zo (playing two other toons will do that to you) he'd probably wipe the floor with me.

But i agree with jabe, don't talk the shit if you cna't back it up...

however...if anyone thinks I can't back it up, feel free to try me.

[Hashum]

Now that is just plain untrue. It may come easier to Ekade but it's not a matter of other's may not find it easy, it's more that others don't want to learn.

Actually I think you hit the nail on the head.

pwn = learn


And guess what? the people around here that have been accused of being "teh pwn" are the most helpful people you will find.

I'm actually tempted to tell you all how to beat me.. but I have been a dancer for 2+ years and I still have a lot of frustration to work out. So crai more until you figure it out!

yes well next time you're not busy I believe I would like to find out if I have the answer. And maybe Jabe can watch ;)

[Ekade]

Easy is also partially comfort zone. Since my template change I don't know how to PvP Jabe, thats just a plain fact. I plan on learning and I want to get back in the action. I am just worried its going to take another year before I got a PvP worthy LS.

Jabe

Based on this one could argue that Gear > Skill, no?


Actually, the practice with a crap weapon will make you that much more pwn when you get a good one.

[Hashum]

Easy is also partially comfort zone. Since my template change I don't know how to PvP Jabe, thats just a plain fact. I plan on learning and I want to get back in the action. I am just worried its going to take another year before I got a PvP worthy LS.

Jabe

Based on this one could argue that Gear > Skill, no?


Actually, the practice with a crap weapon will make you that much more pwn when you get a good one.

Normally I would agree but we're talking about Saber's that are only as good as like CL 24 weapons for othe professions here.

I mean there are certain critera that skill just can't over come. Now my saber (which is Pre-Cu I will admit) is Max Dmg 691 (max on a saber is roughly 720ish) so with the right skill etc. I could probably do ok in PvP, however when you think that my DPS is probably higher then Jabe's Max Damage on his saber, skill just can't always bridge the gap.

Like wise Toront who's a beast, I'm sorry but even if my skill were on a comparable level to his I believe his equipment would make the difference. Because all else equal something has to tip the scale in one's persons favor. And all else being equal equipment is generally that factor.

[Viceroy Odantis]

PS:

Ekade and others

MMO pvp is not "easy", pvp in WoW is easy, you learn what YOUR ONE CLASS does, which is no more than 3 things. You are setup to automatically have an advantage over certains classes, and a weakness to others. WoW pvp is intended to be hardcore RPS style and the only way you beat a class you aren't suppose to is one of two reasons:

1)They have HORRID gear, and i mean like green items "of the tiger" and stuff versus nothing but blues and epic sets. Then you MAY overcome them.


2) They fuck up. If they do everything they "should" you cannot win. The only chance you have is to confuse and hope to fuck them up. Now i haven't played it in awhile and i know multiple balance patches have went in, i know warlocks are now a decent class (wow) and such. But when i played for example..mages beat rogues...period. A solid pvp build mage losing to a rogue was impossible except in "the wild"...the rogue has a slight exception to the above rules because they can stalk and attack you when you are engaged with a mob or low health and have a chance of catching you offguard and putting you in "panic" mode...increasing your chance to fuck up. Now, i was a rogue....but even in straight up duels i could beat the best mages on the server (this is why i was able to call myself King of Rogues and get away with it) now was it a better tactic? was it uber gear? not really... i just broke the pattern. I made the mage's fight different, not harder..in fact easier....but since i made his normal routine unavailable...it confused the piss out of them. It just made them stutter for long enough at the keyboard, out of sheerly being unable to adapt, and i could win 9/10 times.


Now that being said:

WoW = MMO For Dummies. In a month's time i had hit lev 60 and was considered the top alliance pvper...and everytime someone saw my gear they were like "haha you suck" then they die. But had people not been trained by the game to fight in patterns, i wouldn't have stood out. Surely given more time people would have gotten used to it more and my edge would have been gone. Imagine an MLB pitcher having to pitch against one batter, saya relief man coming in...1 out to win the game. He's coming in against a right handed power hitter. The guy muscles up to the plate, and the pitcher is thinking nothing except right handed power hitter. The guy suddenly does something never before done in his career, he switches to a lefty position, when the pitcher finally closes his agape mouth and throws a pitch, its horribly located, the batter bunts. The entire team was playing back deep, the pitcher was expecting swing for the fences...no one is ready. Doesn't mean that batter is a good left handed hitter/bunter. He just broke the pattern that was hard set in their head. But do this a couple times or against a pitcher that remains calm when things change, and he's done.


ANYWAY

Here's what I wanna know....

Does Zo have the best gear he can get? Mostly, my weapon isn't that special though and there's a few more attachments i could get.

Am I pretty much unbeatable in 1v1? More or less (one more reason i quit playing him), but is it because of tricks and such? Is it purely template? No. There are 800 cm/bh's out there, getting their asses kicked on a daily basis. Everytime some hot shot new "top cm/bh" is on the prowl, we have them fight toront and they are dead within a minute or two. Why do I win? I know every in and out of my profession and the patterns people let themselves fall into. During the pvp tourney, toront and i still laugh about how i acted during the final match. Another cm/bh btw, Randal' Hicks. I was talking to toront via tells...because randal' was so far below me in skill level. Same template, and considered a solid pvper. But i was lightyears ahead of him in knowing what to do. What did he open with? Paralyze...as would 99% of other cm's on the server. What did i open with? Traumatize...because i knew what he would do, paralyze me and add all his debuffs, but my first shot lowered his mind regen by 50%....meaning all those debuffs and paralyzes were essentially gonna cost him double...once paralyze broke...i started the fight with full mind, his was already below half. Everyone there however thought "Zo's dead, randal got the paralyze off first" which is a WoW fight..mage on mage..first poly wins. In a game like wow, in a 1v1 between same class...the first strike tends to win.


My "skill" is in adapting, my "skill" is in knowing what you'll do next.

Now is MMO Skill the same as Twitch skill? no, but is it "easy"

apparently not since no one on the server except toront can give me a challenge.

like jabe said, call it cocky, but the minute i cna't back it up, i'll shut it up.

[Ekade]

I mean there are certain critera that skill just can't over come. Now my saber (which is Pre-Cu I will admit) is Max Dmg 691 (max on a saber is roughly 720ish) so with the right skill etc. I could probably do ok in PvP, however when you think that my DPS is probably higher then Jabe's Max Damage on his saber, skill just can't always bridge the gap.

Like wise Toront who's a beast, I'm sorry but even if my skill were on a comparable level to his I believe his equipment would make the difference. Because all else equal something has to tip the scale in one's persons favor. And all else being equal equipment is generally that factor.

Exactly, skill cannot bridge some gaps.

I'm inclined to say that skill is the one element you have the most control over. Just practice and learn. Get that up to par and then you can worry about gear.

[Viceroy Odantis]

Well yeah...skill can't bridge "some" gaps

but that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of skill involved.

Toront doesn't have a perfect saber...its good, but far from perfect...and he consistantly works those who have perfect sabers..


Now granted.. a Jedi on Jedi fight...a 400 max damage saber isn't not gonna do too well against a 750 max damage saber. These are more obvious exceptions.


This flaw also affects a jedi more than a non...Jedi are a very....not to be insulting but what i call "monkey on a keyboard" class. That is, you take a monkey witha keyboard on a full temp jedi, versus an AVERAGE skilled non jedi pvper...the non jedi is dead. That is: The jedi power gap is at the early levels. The average jedi owns the average non jedi.

However, you get into the higher skilled players....this gap drops. There are 2-3 templates known to be jedi killers (if i had more alts there would be more templates famous too ) but this is strictly with a 1v1 fight...a lot of jedi's "power" and "overpower" comes from its versatility.

MLS/MDEF

best defense in game, best offense (provided decent saber)

now if this was a normal class, with amazing O and D...they would have NOTHING anywhere else..

however this jedi can still heal for 1500, even while on his back. They can still forcerun around.

[Hashum]

Well yeah...skill can't bridge "some" gaps

but that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of skill involved.

Toront doesn't have a perfect saber...its good, but far from perfect...and he consistantly works those who have perfect sabers..


Now granted.. a Jedi on Jedi fight...a 400 max damage saber isn't not gonna do too well against a 750 max damage saber. These are more obvious exceptions.


This flaw also affects a jedi more than a non...Jedi are a very....not to be insulting but what i call "monkey on a keyboard" class. That is, you take a monkey witha keyboard on a full temp jedi, versus an AVERAGE skilled non jedi pvper...the non jedi is dead. That is: The jedi power gap is at the early levels. The average jedi owns the average non jedi.

However, you get into the higher skilled players....this gap drops. There are 2-3 templates known to be jedi killers (if i had more alts there would be more templates famous too ) but this is strictly with a 1v1 fight...a lot of jedi's "power" and "overpower" comes from its versatility.

MLS/MDEF

best defense in game, best offense (provided decent saber)

now if this was a normal class, with amazing O and D...they would have NOTHING anywhere else..

however this jedi can still heal for 1500, even while on his back. They can still forcerun around.

I agree with you, I'm in no way trying to say there's no skill involved in PvP the opposite actually. I'm just saying that sometimes skill isn't enough.

[Viceroy Odantis]

as with anything, skill only goes so far..in R/L you can take the BEST fighter pilot in the world...he's still only able to do so much. He's got 4 (or whatever) missiles like the other pilots...short of some top gun-esque moves, only so much can be done. Now to say fight pilots aren't skilled...well...yikes

[Ekade]

My "skill" is in adapting, my "skill" is in knowing what you'll do next.

Now is MMO Skill the same as Twitch skill? no, but is it "easy"

Exactly.

You have gotten to the comfort level with your toon. You drive him like you drive a car.. without having to think about it.

This leaves your brain free to focus on pattern recognition as well as creativity. Your "bag of tricks" is bigger than most, and that is a big factor. It's easier when you know what your opponent is going to do.

I am approaching a comfort level with Ekade, and starting to think of ways I can do some things better as well as some "tricks" that may catch people off guard. However, I need to practice those idea... they may totally bomb.

[snado]

<---- free for sparing 24/7 with teh pwner of purple

if shes up to it

[toront]

Besides we all know Toront is teh r3@l pwn.

This padawan is learning quickly

[Ekade]

MMO pvp is not "easy", pvp in WoW is easy
WoW = MMO For Dummies. In a month's time i had hit lev 60 and was considered the top alliance pvper...and everytime someone saw my gear they were like "haha you suck" then they die.

Have you seen the World Of Roguecraft video? A guy was walking around pwning people on a PvP server with a starter dagger.


PvP in WoW is easy if you are a rogue.


I'm sorry, but you can't use your experiences as an easy-mode alliance rogue on a WoW PvP server (ie. 13 year old hangout) as the basis for any points regarding MMO PvP.

[snado]

yeesh you wanna talk bout immature, go to a battleground on some servers, testosterone galore. makes me want to puke all the insults being flung at team mates.