RP PvP/Duel Etiquette Draft

[Nyvveck]

I understand that people that go to RP events are not always Role-Players. However, I would actually say that the majority of people I meet have the same attitude...they desire for their character to be some sort of "hero". Because of this, the MAJORITY of the people I meet are confrontational towards me, as I am "The Bad Guy" (Of course, to me, the Rebel is the bad guy). So, sadly enough, if I were to ignore those badmouthing the Empire, I would end up ignoring half the room.

Does every Imperial officer want to kill any person that defiles the Empire? No, I would think not. However, as stated before, if you treat say something bad about the Emperor, any compassion I had for you would be lost. To Nyvveck, the Emperor is God...obey him or be destroyed.

Also, to me it makes perfect sense that 4 Imperials can storm a Rebel town (I do not intend for this statement to be offensive in any way, just stating my opinion on the matter). We came into the city SF, giving anyone ample chance to go SF themselves and attack us. Also, we follow our own /duel "guidelines". If the rebels there wanted us gone, they should have challenged us all to a duel, and evicted us...the hard way. I see nothing wrong with that. I have a feeling that Toront or Zo will discuss the "zerging" issue, so I will not even reply to that for fear of being repetitive.

In regards to your suggestions on how we handle things. Have you ever heard of a subtle facist? And, frankly...it's not in my character's interest to mingle with what he would consider "animals". Also, I personally feel that the situation is much less fun when the plot is developed in advance. Perhaps I am misreading your post, but it sounds like you are basicly saying that.

On the subject of getting help from your fellow players. If I am going to challenge someone to a duel, you will know beforehand. I will probably not send someone a tell, but I will begin shouting, calling my oppenent a traitor, and that sort of thing. It is at this time that people should come to your aid, and they usally do. I can remember many times, back when I was one of the only, or the only Imperial in the Federation. Many, many times did I have the entire Roba pointing guns at me, and I was forced to back down. It eventually got to be so that if I even walked up to someone, four or five people would show up to make me back down.

There is no malicious intent in this post, and if anyone takes it that way, I am sorry, but this is my opinion.

[toront]

Just to add my two cents. At a RP event there are usually people there that a) are either new to rp b) thinking about learning to rp or c) just happen to be there and do not rp.

Based on this, as a rper, if I walked into a cantina as an Imperial and someone yelled out "Death to the Emporer", I would immediately assume that that person had no idea how to rp and focus my attention on find those that did.

I belive these people could be either C or A. If they are A, new roleplayers, I would prefer to try and interact with them and perhaps have them tone down or stop making some of the faux-paus that are easy when not familiar with some of our concepts.

Does every Imperial officer want to kill any person that defiles the Empire? I would hope that wouldnt be the case. I will say that I understand a /duel and incap to apprehend, but there would first need to be the attempt to apprehend. I would love to see more incap and get the hell out of there by the rebels and more incap and apprehend by the Imperials or vice versa should they be in a Rebel controlled area.

I agree with this, hence the no deathblow policy. I would rather act out an entire scene, rather than send them off to the cloner. Taking someone to a jail or apprehending them is always tricky. In Dohrian, we have a jail cell, and it has seen it's fair share of use. The only problem is that it takes people away form the rest of the events going on. If there is not anything to roleplayt at the jail cell, I try to avoid actually detaining someone, just because I don't want to put someone in a cell and make them sit there. It's immersive, yes, but it's not any fun.

But to me it doesnt make sense that 4 Imperials can storm into a Rebel town into a cantina filled with Rebels and demand to see ID. I was at the Ruby Lake Cantina and I think it was a great effort for TTF to flag themselves to open the door for others to jump in but seeing as how most of the Rebels there were not on duty and able to take that action, backup being called in and people running to flag thenselves was necessary.

I will be the first to admit that it was somewhat a rush job. One of our Storm Trooper RPers wasn't able to make it, we forgot to pull ST pets out to boost our numbers, and our contact for an actual situation ( a spice bust) went off line as we were on route.

In my opinion TTF was not zerged. Backup in Rebel town was called for. It fit the story line and was necessary due to the limiting game mechanics and lack of preplanning that is necessary for PvP RP. I want to stress that I think all parties did a great job given the situation.

The original band of 4-5 overt rebels that came to clear us out of the cantina was fine. We expected that at some point, overt rebels would be called in. The fact that after we killed every single one of them, they came back, then I killed them again, and they came back, only to die one more time.......that's zerging. If you don't get it on the first attempt, maybe it's appropriate to try a second time. After that, it's just immersion breaking and ridiculous.

I think it is great that TTF does a great job of RPing the villan, but there needs to be more planning if you wish to resort to violence. And I also would like to say that spamming is not necessary at a RP Event. RP it out and say lots of things or Shout to the cantina. I am giving the voice of a new rper in this community.. Not new to RP, but new to rp in the swg environment. I did not know what was taking place in Ruby Lake on Friday and when the spamming started it seemed like someone there to grief a party. People are going to get mad at you and say rude things if they think you are griefing. Take your time and work it out. This shouldnt be like a Western where you barge through the door. Come in one at a time mingle get a feel for the environment then make your bust, but take it slow and develop the plot. Give hints in dialogue or go ooc through tells to get the point across what you are trying to accomplish if it is not working.

The /punch spam was perhaps used prematurely, based on a misunderstanding between Alonzo and myself. We both thought the other was in /tells with the Rebel, when in fact neither of us were. That is a tactic we use when players hide behind the /duel command or resort to /emote fights. Since they don't feel they need to cooperate, we don't feel the need to be calm or subtle in our interaction with them. Normally we save this for problem cases, and here it was used by mistake. Once we began speaking in /tells, the situation was resolved and I felt bad about using our /punch macro too early.

To me the /duel command is tricky though. If I felt that someone through their RP with me had made my charater feel like violence was necessary, I would send that person a tell and say that we should duel not stick them with the /duel command and be pissed when they declined. Send them a tell so they can alert anyone in the room that would come to their defense so that all people could be flagged and the fight be rped accordingly.

This is in no way a flame on anyone. I admire TTF and all of the posters here that are trying to come up with a solution on how these things can be played out. I am giving my two cents and hoping to inspire some thought to how to come up with the solution.

I think one thing becoming more and more clear is to stress communication first in foremost, either in tells or groupchat or setup on this forum. The problems come when everything is only done in character and the other side doesn't understand the other's expectations. I put this draft up to hopefully allow it to become the norm, so that frequent and known players from this site have a kind of shorthand or what is expected in these types of situations. It is however not a replacement for communication. Both sides need to speak OOC if only briefly just so everyone is clear of the intentions.

[toront]

*UPDATED*

-I put a note about OOC communication via /tells to the top of the draft in bold, since this seems to be something that will solve so many misunderstandings and problems before they ever occur.

-I changed the title of the first section, since "Accept all duels at a roleplay event" was being misunderstood

-I eliminated the general tips section since it was somewhat redundant.

The discussion has been great and I believe we are making progress in coming to some form of etiquette that most of us can live with. The discussion has been all about the /duel command, which is understandable since it's the biggest issue of the draft. However, I'm just curious if other people then agree with the ideas in the other sections, or just haven't gotten past talking about the first section.

[Sai'nu]

If I may pipe in just one more time. And I only want to do this because of a little bit of PR misconception to illuminate us to where some of this may come from to begin with.

If you'll look at some of the older advertisements for the game everyone should remember this little line that I'm sure has stuck with a bunch of the buyers of this game:

"Experience the greastest story every told.... yours!"

Not to mention that this 'is' Star Wars we're playing but given how advertisement was handled for the game the point 'was' for the subscriber to feel like they 'were' center stage for the game because when we log on we 'are' from our own points of view.

Now, I think with that said the biggest problem we do have with setting up a PvP system for RP is the fact that not everyone is going to remember what the rules are at any given moment. A new player with no interest in forums is going to have to learn on the spot. Some of 'us' will naturally be hard headed and say, well, this doesn't make sense and continue to RP in our own style of play.

Ok, that said, I do support the community doing this and I'll even go along with whatever we decide here. Although, isn't Novall's thread about Bounty Hunters and Marks essentially 'exactly' what this community agreed upon for PvP engagements? I'd just remembered that this morning and started to re-read that thread. Just because we don't participate in that doesn't mean we should ignore the rules in it.

Yes, a lot of us here just want to play the friggin game as it were. Bickering over 'adding' rules you have to adhere to after a long eight hour shift or having some sort of problems at home 'is' a bit of a hassle when we all step back and realize that Star Wars Galaxies is 'just' a game. A game in which continuity has been changed and clearly stated by the Devs that this is 'not' cannon and their adds single it out so that 'We' are the 'Heroes' of our own stories.

Sorry for that little rant but I think 'this' really is where a lot of our problems come from when we try to apply rules to a game that unspoken; already has them.

Or to put it bluntly we basically have the choice to either follow or not follow anything we come up with here on an individual basis. What works for some may not work for others. What we essentially have to be awear of in 'this' community is that this is 'our' version of Star Wars and we need to try and handle things with each other within this community as fairly as we can.

I think we need to continue to flesh this out with the idea of making the 'rules' as simple as possible with taking a look at Novall's PvP Bounty system one more time. I honestly have been looking and using that for the longest time as the unspoken rule for PvP within this community.

[Sti-Fi]

If I may pipe in just one more time. And I only want to do this because of a little bit of PR misconception to illuminate us to where some of this may come from to begin with.

If you'll look at some of the older advertisements for the game everyone should remember this little line that I'm sure has stuck with a bunch of the buyers of this game:

"Experience the greastest story every told.... yours!"

Well said. I think you have hit the heart of matters, especially when it comes to people who do not know about the community.

[xyryn]

Personally, I don't see myself as a hero...I see myself as a character actor in a supporting role. I suspect that quite a few of the TTF see themselves similarly since they DO play supporting roles in most of the "scenes" I see them in.

The villain in any movie is a character actor. And any one who chooses to play an Imp in a Star Wars movie (our movie) is "supporting" the heroes. Give them the credit for this choice, and help them do their "job". That is really what this thread is about...enabling us supporting characters to have fun too with our choice of role.

Thrashing out these etiquette rules is good...and going into Novall's rules for comparison and usefullness is a good idea, too. I knew that this was sounding familiar but had forgotten about the BH system since my character would probably never be involved in it.

In RL, character actors have more fun. And we are necessary.

[Viceroy Odantis]

You don't need to read this website, EVER, to be a part of "the community"

It takes no longer to explain some accepted etiquette then it does to explain "where can i get Fiberplast" to a noob. That feels like a bit of a cop out to me, no offense intended. Running late for work, i'll try to post more later though.


PS: The devs also say "fly with yoda" and other marketing things, don't let a marketing gimmic be your guide to RP

[Novall]

Back when I played UO, all the major RP guilds were warred with eachother. We went by the guidelines set fourth in the Roleplay Ring that we started to mainly settle complaints and disputes. You never entered an RP guild until you were known to be understanding that that you would be at the mercy of all the other RP guilds. If your guild was an evil guild, then 9 out of 10 good guilds were usually KOS and vice versa.

Now, in SWG...the lines of war a a little different. Rebels are "supposed" to be operateing covert for the most part with gurilla tactics.

If their are more rebs in teh area then imps, I would expect to see some rather nervous imps. If theres more imps then I'd expect to see nervous rebs. Nutrals have it really easy...we can pick our sides on a daily basis.

My suggestion for the players who dont want to RP and PvP is not to put yourself in a situation that would caues you to PvP.

Sure its a game, but just like you I wanna have fun in it to. To be insulted or trashed ingame and not be able to do anything about it is really as degrading a feeling as it can get for me. I've spent alot of time and credits trying to: "Experience the greastest story every told.... yours!"

Why is my story any less important then yours?

[Nyvveck]

Alright, to me, these "rules" seem more like commen sense. Don't we, as a community, want immersion? Isn't that the whole point of role-playing?

I understand that some rebels want to be the hero, that's fine. However, if you're going to be standing up against the Empire, you better know how to fight. To me, it completely breaks RP when someone says anything against the Empire, and than refuses to fight me. And I want to reiterate this again...MOST the people I meet will insult the Empire, then hide behind /duel.

Personally, if I am challenged to a duel, I accept. I take for granted that whoever is trying to attack me has good reason. And I don't challenge anyone to a duel without good reason. If I challenge you to a duel, rest assured that diplomacy has failed. I have NEVER challenged ANYONE to a duel directly after they shouted, "Death to the Emperor!", and I know that it stands the same for Zo and Toront.

I honestly find it funny that we even need such "rules". If we're here to be immersed in the game, I honesly don't see why anyone would not accept a duel. Perhaps someone can give me some reasons? (Please keep in mind that I am assuming that if you are challenged to a duel, you have done something bad in the first place.)

[toront]

Just so I can be sure, this is the post people are refering to when they mention Novall's rules of PvP. If it is not, forgive me and please direct me to the correct thread.

I will admit that it is nice to have it so consicely written and laid out. However, I feel that in many ways, these rules just don't apply to situations I'm trying to discuss.

First of all, this only ever seems to be a one on one hunt. So it never takes into account ideas about duelling all members of a group. In addition, it is not a spontaneous fight. It has been setup here on the boards, and the mark has already agreed to fight if the situation comes to that. It has little to do with the random inspections and problems with trash talking.

Again, I will state that I never want to call these rules. Even guidelines sounds authoritative. Etiquette seems to be the best word because it works like manners. They aren't required, no one can force you to be polite, however it is more enjoyable for everyone when you are. I feel the same applies to following this etiquette. For the record, all interactions are different and sometimes the best course of action is different from this etiquette.

[Leylea]

Thanks for the feedback on my post. I will start by saying that I totally understand what you mean about zerging now. I actually went back in the cantina after you all had defeated the rebels the first time so was unaware that they cloned and came back.. I agree this is not in good rp taste and apologize for my misunderstanding of all that happened.

I guess the point that I was really trying to make at 3am (lol) was that, as a new RPer that wanted to be involved, I couldn't because I didnt realize the interaction until the spam. I will totally admit to be naive to TTF and the role they play. I am glad to see the responses to my post and to know that as this grows and more new rpers like me join in we can find our place.

What I dont want to see happen is, if I challenge the tough guys that have stormed into the bar in my home town, to have a /duel thrown at me. Facist or not, I would hate to see our main villans out for blood everytime we interact. After your response, I feel this isnt your intention and that excites me.

As to the post about me wanting everything staged, no way! I just think we could define who we are and what we are about in general terms so that we perhas know a little better that ..if I do a certain rp action it is going to result in PvP. So that if i choose that action midstream I know to have backup ready so that the confrontation can be played out in a real manner. I hate to see someone get killed at an Rp event and everyone around act like nothing is going on. Death and setting a fellow faction member on fire is a serious event and should result in a chaotic scene. So it is imperative to know before hand if the event being held can handle such a scene. Those that want that type of chaos can take it outside, as it was, and have their fun.

I think the best thing for that incident is a little more planning and knowledge of only the fact that conflict was a possibilty for the event to be known upfront .. not the outcome or who would fight who.. That is no fun at all. I say take the chaos outside, through the verbal back and forth an so on while everyone is activating all the duels, make sure everyone is ready and then see how it plays out. Finally, rp the outcome and figure out what that outcome will result in the next time those individuals meet. This would be great for spontanious rp.

People that are new to rp that witness these types of interactions may feel left out but discuss it with them in tells afterwards and explain how they could be involved the next time.

Great discussion and thanks for hearing me.

[Hashum]

I'm sorry folks, I need to chime in on this one and bring you'll down to reality.

Roleplaying is suppose to be fun.

When we create stringent rules of how we expect others to roleplay. it's an infringement on others rights as to how they play the game. Do you go to the gas station and the attendent "forces" you to pump Premium because it's his gas station? No, you have a choice in the matter as a paying customer. Jaminos has a right, as do you to roleplay how you wish. You are both paying customers. If you would like to create your own rules for roleplay engagements, I say that's wonderful. However, please realize that not everyone will agree or go along with your style of roleplay. Not everyone will want to roleplay as Jaminos sees fit either. The great thing about roleplay is that stimulates creativity, not supresses it.

ILL

Yes roleplaying is suppose to be fun. But it's suppose to be fun for everyone. And when someone starts spouting against the Empire then they do need to expect a fight in these types of scenarios.

There are basic manners that should be followed just like there are in real life. You don't see someone go spouting off in a restraunt about their waiter and the owner of the store and not see them get kicked out very often. That's because the establishment needs to respect the rights of the other patrons. As far as I'm concerned these rough idea's are simply trying to do the same in SWG.

I for one am all for these, they're very fair, and it's not interfering directly with anyone's RP. If it does it's probably because the person is really interfering with the RP event in general by being a pain in the rump.

[Nyvveck]

Again, just to put this out there as it seems that there still is a slight misunderstanding.

I am quite sure (nothing is 100%) you will NEVER see any member of TTF walk into a RP event and just throw a duel out at random.

At Ruby Lake we challenged only one person to a duel, the person who was standing up for the rebels, and directly challenging us (but he didn't seem to want to fight us).

Now, IC I am a very insulting person, refering to any non-humans as "animals". Am I going to fight someone simply because they are an "animal"? No, I will not. I can't stress this point enough, so I am putting it in big bold caps right here: PVP IS STILL OPTIONAL. If you don't want to get beat up by the group of stromtroopers that walk into a cantina, don't verbally attack them.

And, I must say Leylea, you seem like a very reasonable and mature person. I look forward to interacting with you in game someday.

[toront]

Thank you Hashum. It's nice to see that we are getting over the hump of "Oh NOES, you are trying to control my RP!!!". We just want the roleplay to be more immersive, realistic and fun for everyone, plain and simple.

Leylea, another great post. I will agree that we don't want blood everytime (well, perhaps some of our characters do, but they are kept in check by the other characters for the most part. As some may have noticed, Toront tends to be cocky, quick to the fight because of his confidence in his ability to best anyone. It usually takes the level head of Nyvveck or Alonzo, both of whom outrank him, to keep Toront from slicing and dicing). Eventually these spontaneous run-ins will lead to distinct relationships between players and groups of players, with which we can build stories and have more setup interactions. We would much rather interrogate a Rebel to get to the head of their cell so that we do not simply apprehend a minion, but stop an entire group of Rebels. This of couse leads to all types of capture the leader type scenarios, mass, pre-planned PvP.

We are expecting retaliation sooner or later. As stated, we gladly play by our own rules and expect to find ourselves out in a town with just 1 or 2 players with us when a force of 8-12 Rebel RPers surround us. Don't be surprised if we /duel all 12 and need to be incapped at least once before surrendering (we tend to somewhat over confident).

Returning to the conclusion of your post, it is our hope too that more spontaneous, "pick-up" roleplay will only lead to more players being introduced to the community. It is difficult for someone to come to an event and step into a story-line that has been going on for 3 weeks, however interacting with a storm trooper that is just doing his job is an easy enough scene to jump into. Hopefully the interactions with newer roleplayers will introduce them to this segment of the roleplaying community and this website. From there, it becomes easier to jump into the longer arcing storylines.

[Ekade]

I was thinking a while back that due to their beliefs the Temple might be the only RP rebel guild.

The beliefs of the Temple do not agree with Imperial ideology. We could be a rebel guild.. but I think a "good rebel RP guild" is one that you would never know they were rebel.

Known rebels are dead rebels.

I do wish there was a military-style rebel RP guild... like a special forces sort of thing. This would be a great place for the combat-minded RP'ers to play. We have a good number of bounty-hunters and smuggler-types in the community, but scarcely any Imperials and even fewer true military-style Rebels. Maybe those roles are just not that compelling, I don't know. Maybe it has just never been tried. Personally, I thing either of those would be very interesting.

Sorry for being a little off-topic. I will respond to the meat of the subject shortly.